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Tue 4 Sep 12 #1 
jmaxg
Contributor


Ladies and gentlemen, it's time.

The Republican Conference has already happened and now comes the Democratic Convention.

Leading up to that, what's happened?

The powers that be are trying to say that the President never gave the order and that they just did it by themselves.

As an ex soldier, I have a problem with that.

Here's a clue, soldiers are constitutionally bound. You wanna implicate the President in something he actually did, what is your point?

Ok, ok......the next is intended to my best friends.

It's your turn. What did he do wrong?


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Tue 4 Sep 12 #2 
Ajax
Contributor

Why do you have such a long campaign over there?

I have no opinion on your question.


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Tue 4 Sep 12 #3 
southshoregirl

What did he do ? Are we certain bin Laden is dead? Burial at sea? Come on! LOL

I have never once, anywhere, seen or heard that he didn't order that bin Laden be knocked off. Not one reporter has said that. Have you heard that, jmaxg? I ask you WHERE?

I agree with Ajax that the electioneering that goes on over here is ridiculous. I hate it. It is stupid and I wish it were limited to a much shorter period of time.


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Wed 5 Sep 12 #4 
Ajax
Contributor

It wasn't a rhetorical question. I really want to know the answer.


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Fri 7 Sep 12 #5 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

I think there's a question of logistics for one thing. It's a big old country and if candidates want to show up all over it then that'll take time.

Not so much in this day and age, admittedly, and you could argue that in this day and age they might as well just campaign via TV and modern fangled internetty thing. However, the US isn't particularly quick at adapting - being a slow and ponderous beast in some ways.

That said, the conventions have got later in the year over the last 150 or so years. At the end of the 19th century, both conventions were held in June. So there's been some concession to progress in transport and communication.

Still - that's my suspicion (with no real clue as to whether it's a genuine reason or one of many). It's so long because it originally needed to be and because the two main parties jockey for position with neither wanting to unilaterally cut the length of their campaign.


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Fri 7 Sep 12 #6 
Proofreader
Member

My wish is that primaries would be given two months to campaign ONLY on public TV, radio, Internet....and same for the national election. NO ADS. No contributions to individual candidates. Contributions from individuals, corporations, etc., allowed to finance TV, radio, and Internet appearances and debates. (Companies could brag about how much they gave.) The present system is out of control,embarrassing,and shamefully wasteful.
Dream on!! :)


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Sat 8 Sep 12 #7 
southshoregirl

It is out of control and I am sick of having a two year campaign. It is a load of crap!


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Sun 9 Sep 12 #8 
kevg
The Grumpinator

2 years governing then 2 years electioneering, mind you he didn't do much in his 2 years anyway cept for Bin Laden which was an army thing before he came to power.


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Sun 9 Sep 12 #9 
southshoregirl

I like Proofreader's idea. Two months and lay your cards on the table. It is a horrible irritant, a divisive process, a period of scandal, lies and misinformation, a waste of money and time and in the end all the electioneering probably changes few minds. THe amount of money spent is obscene.


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Mon 10 Sep 12 #10 
sally906
Contributor

As much as I loathe having to vote as they're all a pack of thieves and out for their own self-interest, if they start out wanting to be there to help the party machine soon stomps them into submission to the party line. I do like the Aussie way - voting is compulsory - so everyone gets a say and it is usually only a 4 week campaign - 6 tops.


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Mon 10 Sep 12 #11 
southshoregirl

That sounds great, Sally, but what are your requirements for voters eligibility? Age, citizenship, literacy, etc.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #12 
jmaxg
Contributor

The answer is 18 years of age and Australian citizenship.

Exclusions from voting are restricted to those citizens who have served (or are serving) a prison sentence of five years or more, have been convicted of treason and not pardoned, and those who are unable or incapable of understanding the significance of enrollment and voting (presumably code for the mentally incapacitated).

(reference)

The Aussie way is certainly a way that would have profound implications over here in the US.

There is no reason (apart from constitutionally) why it couldn't be implemented. But there would be a helluva lot of vested interests opposed to it. Methinks that a great portion of the American public probably wouldn't care either way. Compulsorily vote, voluntarily vote, whatever. But the major parties and other interested entities? They would have a flying fit!

It seems that the "Commander-in-Chief taking too much credit for the dispatching of bin Laden" thing has died right down after the Republican and Democratic conventions. Good......it really was a non-issue.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #13 
Ajax
Contributor

Also, you get fined for not voting without a good reason.

However I do know someone who has never registered to vote because he is an anarchist (I know!), so he doesn't vote.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #14 
jmaxg
Contributor

Well, I think that's the inference behind compulsory voting but thanks for pointing that out.

Hey, I think I missed a couple of elections meself during my Army years. I just never saw a need to dob myself in for some strange reason.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #15 
Ajax
Contributor

They send you a letter. I think they would have known you were serving. You'd hope so.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #16 
jmaxg
Contributor

Ok.....I'll put it down to my constant change of address then. And no, they don't necessarily know you are a soldier. I did voluntary civic duty as an electoral officer in one election in the 1980s. I don't recall occupation as being an electoral roll issue.

But then again, that was almost 30 years ago.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #17 
jmaxg
Contributor

The Egyptian and Libyan Embassy Issue

(file under Foreign Affairs, State Department, Constitutional First Amendment and Terrorism)

I feel it's pertinent to point out some facts I have uncovered about the whole affair. The standards of reporting in the US news media have been all over the place all day long.

Overview (for those that came in late): Early yesterday US time, US embassy staff in both Egypt and Libya became aware of intelligence reports that local Muslims were becoming uneasy after the release of a YouTube video showing extracts from a US made, anti-Muslim "film". The embassies prepared and released a non-sanctioned statement, as they were independently authorised to do so, denouncing the overt, anti-Muslim content of the "film".

Late yesterday US time, large protest crowds began forming outside the US Embassies in both Cairo (Egypt) and Bengali (Libya). In the case of the Egyptian embassy, the protests were raucous and maybe some anti-American graffiti was applied, but that was about it.

Unfortunately though, in the case of the Libyan embassy in Bengali, the protests escalated to a full scale (and strangely military and tactically coordinated) attack. As a result, the US Ambassador to Libya was killed along with another state department official and two security staff, presumably US marines.

Things to point out....

The "Film" - Some idiot who calls himself "Sam Bacile" (apparently not his real name) and who categorises himself as "an Israeli Jew", got some investors to back him to the tune of $5 Million and made something that might be laughably be referred to as a "film". This 2 hour "film" itself is nothing but atrociously produced, poorly acted, amateurish anti-Muslim diatribe with special effects that rivalled a six year old that had suddenly been given a digicam, an apple computer, his mum's green curtains, and some bad pictures of Bedouin camps in the Sahara Desert.

The "film" had a single showing some months ago at a single theatre. Less than a quarter of available seats were filled apparently. Needless to say, it was not a success.

(wondering about the $5 Million budget. Can't see it on the screen (see below). Sam must have had lots of business lunches)

The YOUTUBE Video - Posted by Islamic devotees, the 14 minute YouTube video shows extracts from the original Sam Bacile "film" and gives a summary of the more extreme anti-Muslim moments.

I watched and was horrified at what I saw. Those investors should get their money back. Those stick-on beards look like they came from a department store just prior to Halloween. And the costumes? I mean, really!

Sam Bacile made Ed Wood, the director of "Plan 9 From Outer Space", the recorded worst film of all time, look like Steven Spielberg. Ok, not really, but you get my point.

Oh.....one more thing about the film.......the producers should be prosecuted. Under what law? I don't know. But two state department officials are now dead as are two US marines and the Bengali Embassy now lies in ruins. I think there are precedents for lawful prosecution, even under the 1st Amendment, when such expression results in death. If so, the Justice Department should be looking into that.

If not? I dunno.....can't we throw his ass in jail JUST BECAUSE his film was worse than the infamous "Plan 9"??

Where is there a cultural or artistic "hit-squad" when ya need one? I mean, really, can't we at least tie the guy up in his own celluloid, beat him and tar and feather him for creative reasons alone? No? Ok....then there is no justice.

Anyway, I now open the floor to the political and therefore "Election 2012" implications.

(p.s. - sub-file category - really, really bad films)


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #18 
kevg
The Grumpinator

Jmax , Jmax, Jmax.
The ambassador was killed in Benghazi, Libya, remember that place, the one we freed from Gaddaffi. 4 other people were killed. The Cairo attack 1 died on several injured.
The Cairo consulate was emptied by the security because they heard of a protest. It is inconceivable that security would know but not the government yet no additional police or army units were sent to hold back protestors. Collusion with the scum.
The same applies to Benghazi.
Give these people aid and they will spend it on weapons !!
The whole point of the protests was about a film !! A film for God's sake. Not real life although I know how much more seriously they take film out there because they are stupid !!
Bacile called himself a Coptic Christian not a Jew. As the Copts are under attack in Egypt I see this as highly unlikely, far more likely is an Islamic plot to see off the Christian Copts from Egypt.
My solution is to turn their desert into glass. All of it. There is no use talking to these people. Any sign of compromise is taken as weakness.
Alternatively withdraw all forces from ALL middle eastern countries and let them fight it out themselves. Gas prices will rise and we'll be driving steam cars but the only way they will join us in the civilised world is by hitting them in their pockets. They had nothing til we found oil now they want to tell us what to do ??


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #19 
jmaxg
Contributor

OK...ok....I admit to overdosing on Lee Falk comics recently. The Phantom still looms large in my psyche.

Readers should replace any reference by me to "Bengali" with "Benghazi".

After that, anything that kevg said above is.....whatever the hell it is given this is a forum on the 2012 US Presidential Election and not an outlet for anti-Muslim sympathy.

Those awful Arabs booted your imperialistic asses out yonks ago and so I will attempt to sympathise....

There, there......there, there.......there, there.....

Feel better?

:-)


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #20 
Ajax
Contributor

There will never be peace in the Middle East until the US stops enabling the existence of Israel and their "defensive" army.

You'd be wondering what God really thought of you if your promised land was smack bang in the middle of a hostile crowd.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #21 
Ajax
Contributor

Are you serious?

You own this issue, eh?


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #22 
jmaxg
Contributor

G'head........knock yourself out.

You were saying that Israel doesn't have the right to exist.

Please.....continue.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #23 
Ajax
Contributor

Not if you can't read.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #24 
jmaxg
Contributor

I will concede if you concede that such terms as "enabling the existence of" are not helpful and might be considered inflammatory.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #25 
Ajax
Contributor

I have no opinion of whether any country has a right to exist, and would never say so. I do question the logic of it's location. If it wasn't about faith it would be pure folly.

Perhaps some back story. When I researched Mid East Peace, or lack of, some years ago (from both sides btw, one Jewish scholar had the most readable text) it all came back to Israel. The US wasn't responsible for the Crusades, and somehow Britain has been left out of the scenario. The extremists are only concerned with Israel and their perception that US funds and maintains Israel.

Everything else since then has been tit for tat. It isn't going to get better.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #26 
southshoregirl

I will write tomorrow since i am very tired. All I know is that the US Ambassador to Libya was raped before he was killed and that is disgusting and an embassy's property is considered that country's sovereign soil. Therefore the US territory was invaded and 4 people were killed. Disgraceful and inexcusable under any circumstances. And with it happening on 9/11 just why would it seem so bloody innocent to anyone. I am steamed.

This is a horror and WE have no right to be anywhere in the middle east, never have and never will. (I guess I woke up) This whole Arab Spring BS was enabled by the brilliant President and his semi-literate Sec. of State. We enabled the whole thing. We gave aid to the most radical Muslims and watched two dictators who were none the less reasonable for the world to deal with go down. It is insanity. Now what a fine kettle of fish do we have? Obama doesn't go on TV to condemn the murders but he apologizes to the murderers! What's wrong with this picture? (They were pissed at the youtube clip, not a long film)

Ajax, Israel was given to the Israelis in 1948 by the UN, I believe. We didn't give it to them. Seeing the other punks in the neighborhood I would say I am glad they are there, too, and I am very embarassed at how Obama is treating Netanyahu. There will be a price to pay here. It is just a matter of time. It is a hornet's nest all over that region. Stand back.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #27 
southshoregirl

See you tomorrow. Too tired to write more.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #28 
jmaxg
Contributor

Agreed Ajax but the United Nations acknowledged Israel.

That is not a big deal, that is THE deal. That is my only approach and my reasoning for questioning you.

Are there alternatives? Sure! I am not sure it's within our paygrade to work that out though.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #29 
Ajax
Contributor

I mentioned "perceived" as being the responsibility of the US. That makes all the difference when you have a list of grievances. There are many people in the world who wouldn't know that the US and UN weren't the same thing.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #30 
Ajax
Contributor

I would suggest that there are also many people who don't understand that the embassy is anything more than a building with foreigners in it.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #31 
jmaxg
Contributor

No....you are right. But we should make an effort to instill the difference.

There is a gulf between the US and the UN. Being a permanent member on the security council is only one aspect.

But if we go there, what are we to think of Iran and Russia?

The door swings both ways


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #32 
Ajax
Contributor

Is a consulate like an embassy? Is it American soil?

The French consulate in Sydney is one office in an office block, so when people try to bomb scare them everyone else has to go into the street. "I'm off to Myer. Mark me off."


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #33 
jmaxg
Contributor

Yes.......a consulate is like an embassy specifically.

Not as much security maybe, but the same principal exists. Documentation within is considered "diplomatic".

Now, the agents at the Consulate? Errr......good question.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #34 
jmaxg
Contributor

Reference the Australian Consulate in Chicago....

I have spoken to the same person many times.

When she answers the phone she is all "Australian Consulate - X speaking" with a seemingly clipped or upper class American accent.

When she realises I am Australian, it's all "Oh. How the hell are ya mate?"

I so love being an Australian.

:-)


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #35 
Ajax
Contributor

Crikey, that's embarrassing.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #36 
jmaxg
Contributor

Not to me.

:-)


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #37 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Embassies (or consulates or any other form of diplomatic mission) are not sovereign soil of the country they represent. That's a common misconception.

The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961 established principles such as diplomatic immunity and all signatories to that convention agreed to principles such as diplomatic immunity and the use of diplomatic bags/pouches. One article of the convention states that "The premises of the mission shall be inviolable. The agents of the receiving State may not enter them, except with the consent of the head of the mission".

However, the territory of the mission doesn't automatically become sovereign territory of the "sending State".

Consider the situation in times of war or serious diplomatic conflict when a country takes the decision to expel diplomats of a foreign state. That wouldn't be possible if the embassy were sovereign territory of the sending state.

Incidentally, with regards to diplomatic immunity, that only applies to actions carried out in the course of official diplomatic business. So, if a foreign diplomat murders someone as a hobby, then he's on his own. That isn't relevant to this discussion, of course, but it's worth bearing in mind if you're watching Lethal Weapon 2.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #38 
kevg
The Grumpinator

I'm hoping to enjoy this cos I know a fair bit about the Middle east meself.
US backing of Israel is a fact and one I'm quite happy with. That Israel has a right to exist is undeniable, granted UN charter and beat the massed armies of the Arabs not once but twice.
A question re the storming of the Egyptian Embassy/Consulate. The building was almost deserted because security heard of a protest. It is inconceivable that if security knew the Government of Egypt didn't but they made no effort to provide more police or army units until after the event. Collusion ??
Only got sparse details of the Libyan incident so far, I'll have to check it out but no mention of rape in anything I've seen. Tis possible (look what happened to Gadaffi) but so far the Ambassador seems to have died in a fire in the building.

As Ajax says there is little possibility of peace whilst Israel exists. OR until the Arab nations grow up and stop using Israel and US as an excuse for their own backwardness. Muslim Brotherhood are the elected rulers of Egypt just as Hamas were elected in Gaza. Look what happened to Hamas.

The great Arab Spring looks like turning sour. I wonder what forum I posted that on many moons ago ??


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #39 
kevg
The Grumpinator

A massive nuclear strike would be my option. Nothing focuses minds like the desert being turned to glass.
We could withdraw all troops and contractors from the Arab countries and let them fight it out themselves, then move in and take over.
They would still sell us oil because that is the source of their wealth, indeed if they refused we would have the perfect excuse to move in !!


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #40 
southshoregirl

Stu, your link does not come up. What the Libyans did to the Amricans was just plain wrong and if we had any balls we would have blown them away when they burned our fllag. DAMN THOSE THUGS.. Ajax, there are things you and I just have no contol over but wem the USA, ansd yes, Israel, are always a target for radical Islam and while I agree that the United Nations is a rotten institution it is definitely anti-US and most Americans don't like it. I would like for us to un-join and never send anything to any one but our friends.

I would like to have not one American living in the Middle East so when we do what they will eventually need to learn to behave themselves.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #41 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Sorry about that - I've fixed the link now.


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Thu 13 Sep 12 #42 
southshoregirl

Thanks, Stu.


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Fri 14 Sep 12 #43 
kevg
The Grumpinator

"Those awful Arabs booted your imperialistic asses out yonks ago and so I will attempt to sympathise...."

Sorry I just woke up and realised the fool had posted this. No Arab state kicked UK out of anywhere !! The entire region was under the Ottoman boot for centuries until the end of WW1. French and British authority was granted by the thankfully defunct League of Nations. Syria and Lebanon to the French, Iraq, Iran and all points south to the British. Having fulfilled the mandate we left, leaving behind a semblance of government, perhaps not as we know it but a lot better than they had before.
Leaving aside USA interference in the Suez debacle, which left the w*gs convinced they were a world power, no Arab nation ever achieved any kind of victory against a western state much less the UK.
Get your facts straight, I can talk about this all night, I know the region and I know the people !!


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Fri 14 Sep 12 #44 
southshoregirl

They had better stop killing Anericans or there will be trouble and I heard just now that Al Queda raised it's flag in London. Time to get ready, Brits. They have been trying to take over the western world since the Crusades. Damn! We need Vlad the Impaler, don't we?

As far as the US Embassy attacks go, it is a very commonly held and time honored tradition that the embassies are off limits to invasion. We are setting ourselves up for a new Jimmy Carter-style hostage situation or something far, far worse. The marines guarding the Libyan embassy had no ammunition. How do you like that? jmaxg? Do you like that fact....that a man was killed and sodomized (plus three other people died) because the Marines were told they could not be properly armed and that order came from your pal, BHObama. It is so wrong, so skewed. The Muslim Springers are wild and the Americans who are there legitimately are in terrible danger. It is a terrible mess. This is what you get when you elect someone who meddles far beyond the point of expedince. I want to hear opinions. I know I will......


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Fri 14 Sep 12 #45 
southshoregirl

It seems that the film was made by a Coptic Christian, not someone in the USA, jmaxg. I don't know what was in that film but having seen filmed of charred Christians in Egypt I have to say I would be pretty annoyed too, if I were a Coptic Christian.


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Fri 14 Sep 12 #46 
southshoregirl

I would love to raise the voting age back to 21 since we no longer have a draft and I wish we had a mental accuity test administered before people were allowed to vote, too. There are far too many people in the US who havn't a clue what the issues are, who know zippo history, who are depending on the person promising the most entitlements. It is very bad, in fact it is disgusting and immoral. I wish these changes could take effect.


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Sat 15 Sep 12 #47 
jmaxg
Contributor

Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, otherwise known as "Sam Bacile", a self described "Israeli Jew", is in fact as kevg pointed out, a Coptic Christian and therefore by definition, an Egyptian.

As for the film itself? Sorry SSG.......it is a product of Hollywood, USA. That is a matter of record.

Ok....last count there were 18 Muslim based countries protesting. This is getting way out of hand.

A great opportunity to study the talents of the presidential opponents with respect to foreign affairs.

The current POTUS response? Call the leaders, particularly Morsi in Egypt, and be blunt explaining the various degrees of "alliance". 10 means we have a treaty and a legal and mutual accord, 1 means you are a fairies' fart away from official "enemy of the United States".

Morsi? You are at 5. You wanna go for 2? Not the language, obviously, but that's the way I read it. I like that approach.

Mitt Romney? His approach was to attack the POTUS for not standing by First Amendment principals. In other words, he attacked the sitting president whilst America was under attack.

Historically, that's not a good idea. Reagan could have done it against President Carter when the helicopters crashed in that failed mission to liberate the hostages, but he didn't. A sign of a true politician.

This is not turning out to be a good week for Mitt.

But please do not underestimate the level of pressure on our current president though.

Thanks to an idiot called Nakoula Basseley Nakoula and his really bad movie, the current POTUS sees 18 embassies and consulates under siege and four Americans already dead.

At this stage, it sucks to be him.


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Sat 15 Sep 12 #48 
Ajax
Contributor

Dubya would have invaded Eye-rack again by now.


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Sat 15 Sep 12 #49 
Ajax
Contributor

There was a violent protest in Sydney today.

The Premier said "The right to protest comes with an equal responsibility to do so peacefully and lawfully, and that responsibility has been comprehensively ignored today."

Every right comes with a responsibility, which most people don't think about when they bang on about the right to free speech. Everyone has a responsibility to say something that doesn't offend. Or make movies that don't break a religious code. It's not rocket surgery.

However, more disturbing is a toddler holding a sign saying "Behead all those who insult the prophet." They are to be congratulated on having a protest sign with good spelling and grammar, however.


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Sun 16 Sep 12 #50 
southshoregirl

SSG says briefly that the big mess was caused by a youtube segment, not a two hour movie. I am not even going to try to justify Obama's shameful behavior during this incident and the many more are developing all across the mid east to Indonesia. Obama chose to go on Letterman, play golf and do a lot of crap instead of dealing with this problem and ROMNEY is to blame? Remember who wanted Mubarek and Kadaffi overthrown ("Oh, there will be no American boots on the ground") They engineered discord there so the very extreme Muslime Brotherhood could take over. I cannot believe your thinking at all, jmaxg. You are getting curiouser and curiouser.

It is not a good week to be a westerner, period.


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Sun 16 Sep 12 #51 
southshoregirl

Dub-ya would have been slamming Eye-RAN by now, Ajax. And many for the hell of it he would hit EYE-Rak again. All I know is that the last I hear all manner of warships , mine-sweepers and god only knows what are headed to the Straight of Hormuz. They are from nearly 2 dozen countries.


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Sun 16 Sep 12 #52 
Ajax
Contributor

I heart Peter FitzSimons. He's a pragmatic guy.

What were they thinking?


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Sun 16 Sep 12 #53 
kevg
The Grumpinator

For some reason Islamics seem to think they are capable of taking on the world. The time has come to tell them they can't. There is indeed a large multi national fleet assembling at the Straits of Hormuz as we wait Israel's strike at Iran.
I'm looking forward to the next couple of weeks.


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Sun 16 Sep 12 #54 
southshoregirl

Great news report, Ajax. Yes! What ARE they thinking? They have a notion now that Onama has killed bin Laden, conveniently forgetting the many acts if terror the Moslems have done around the world, and these fanatics want to create chaos and destructiom wherever they go and apparently they are demonstrating all over the world. OOOOOH! I forgot! They are the religion of peace! I guess they forgot, too!

I am waiting to see what unfolds during the next few weeks. too. Kev.


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Tue 18 Sep 12 #55 
jmaxg
Contributor

I must admit, this is getting to much to handle and yes, one feels like a severe foot should be put down. But it should be their foot, not ours.

There is no doubt that this is being inflamed for political reasons. As is the usual process in all countries.

So let the countries sort it out. Remember, part of the picture here is observing how good other countries are at keeping the peace. So? Let's let them do that.

Has some two-bit, dumb, tacky and no-value film caused all this? A film that has had only ONE viewing? Apparently so.

But let me remind everybody.......the YouTube posting of the 14 minute extract was by an Islamic agency. The point to be made by them is a valid one to be sure. But I notice that they have no intention of taking that embarrassing video down even after they have achieved what I am sure was the desired effect. By the way, if you visit that video and watch or not, they have disabled all comments. Convenient, huh? Apparently, "freedom of speech" works only when it suits interested parties.

I found that ironic particularly in this case.


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Tue 18 Sep 12 #56 
southshoregirl

I say let them all fight it out amongst themselves and bring all UK, US, Aussie, whoever else doesn't belong there HOME! Let get the hell out of there. Why are we there anyway? Out! Now!


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Wed 19 Sep 12 #57 
Ajax
Contributor

Sea monkeys stole my money.


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Thu 20 Sep 12 #58 
southshoregirl

And the dingo aight me baiby.


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Thu 20 Sep 12 #59 
Ajax
Contributor

Appalling. :D


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Thu 20 Sep 12 #60 
southshoregirl

Back to reality!!!!!!

jmaxg, what do you think of the situation in the middle east in light of the new evidence that the attack which killed four Americans was a terrorist attack. What now? If you were President what would you do?


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Sat 22 Sep 12 #61 
jmaxg
Contributor

Exactly what the President did. He contacted the Libyan head of state and reminded him of his obligations relative to the security of foreign missions. I am getting the impression with this president that he has the ability of transmitting his displeasure quite effectively as evident by how quickly Egyptian President Morsi changed things on the ground after their phone call. Anyway, security increased from that point but let us remember that the now obvious terrorist attack in Libya was either fortuitously timed, or deliberately expedited under the smoke-screen of protests over that awful "film".

The FBI has now been ordered in and have been on site in Libya for over a week. I believe some suspects have already been identified.

As for the deaths of diplomatic personnel, it is a tragedy. All of them of course, but none more so than the Ambassador himself.........a career diplomat who was always willing to step into harms way on the off chance he could do some good. Ambassador John Christopher Stevens is a credit to the United States as are the 3 security staff who perished with him.

However, it is a fact that being a member of a diplomatic mission, whatever the country, is a risk to life and limb and all personnel are aware of this and they sign an acknowledgement as such. The Libyan Embassy should be no exception.

I feel there is a good chance that the perpetrators will be located and brought to justice. In this case and at this stage, that should do.


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Sat 22 Sep 12 #62 
jmaxg
Contributor

As for dingos eating babies, I'd just like to point out that the baby has a name and always did.

A recent proclamation by the government of the Northern Territory of Australia ordered that all records be changed to reflect the following.....

That on the night of 17 August 1980 at the then location of Ayers Rock (now known as Uluru), the child Azaria Chantel Loren Chamberlain was taken from her tent by a local indigenous species of fauna, probably that known as Canis lupus dingo and killed by that entity and disposed of.

Parents Lindy and Michael Chamberlain were totally exonerated of any responsibility for Azaria's demise and it was so ordered that all records be amended to reflect this.

Lindy Chamberlain spent three years in a Northern Territory jail for this after being sentenced to life in prison with hard labour (a valid sentence back in the 1980s). Michael received an 18 month suspended sentence for being an accessory after the fact.

I guess what I am saying is, can we give the "dingo aight me baiby" bit a rest now?

Don't get me wrong.....Seinfeld is one of my favourite sitcoms. But I have never liked Elaine doing that bit and I don't feel I should have to.

All I know is a kid got killed in what might have been the most horrific way possible given the feeding habits of the dingo and it's love for soft tissue.

That's official now.......so the fun's over.


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Sat 22 Sep 12 #63 
jmaxg
Contributor

Besides, we have more pressing matters......

People in the southern American states have taken to a new habit........hanging empty chairs from trees.

I saw a couple of online pictures recently and I must confess, I didn't get it.

But then I read the article that reiterated Clint Eastwood's speech at the Republican National Convention. Clint decided he would do an off the cuff presentation whereupon he would refer to an empty chair brought onstage as the President and have a dialog with that entity as if Clint and the President of the United States were talking one-to-one. The presentation did not work as expected and even seemed embarrassing in parts due to delays in Clint's apparently slow thought process and subsequent elongated pauses on stage.

Clint Eastwood himself said of it later, "If you are stupid enough to invite me to come to speak on your behalf, then you get what you ask for."

The "empty chair" that Clint talked to? That is now seen as representative of the current President by certain people in some places here in the United States.

And now people are hanging empty chairs from trees........obviously making a reference to "lynching", the past process where troublesome black men were hung by their necks from trees until dead and celebrated by the local community in photos.

This is appalling. My advice? Do nothing.

Just accept it for what it is. A sad and pitiful hangover of the American psyche and a justification for what I have said all along.......that this president is seen differently and treated differently. That the congressional refusal to deal with the President's agenda may, even to the smallest extent, have something to do with who he was, rather than who he is.

Just admit it, get over it, and after the re-election, let's get on with the business of running a country.


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Sat 22 Sep 12 #64 
kevg
The Grumpinator

somehow I get the impression the only one who cares is an Australian


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Sat 22 Sep 12 #65 
jmaxg
Contributor

No, that just looks like you are picking on me because I am Australian.


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Sat 22 Sep 12 #66 
Proofreader
Member

I am horrified and sickened...had not heard about the hanging chairs. If true, that is beyond disgusting. Those who do something like that are threatening the President and should be dealt with by the FBI.


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Sat 22 Sep 12 #67 
jmaxg
Contributor

It's pretty much the pits Proofie. Living in a country like this can be awful when you can plainly see the best and brightest are treated differently because of the colour of their skin.

Harvard Law? Not a problem. First black editor of the Harvard Law Review? Congrats! Nobel Prize winner? Wow!!

Black? Welcome to America.

But please understand that the United States is trying hard to overcome that. It's not an easy road given the 1st Amendment.


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Sat 22 Sep 12 #68 
Proofreader
Member

Well it is very disheartening to think people can be so hateful. They are a tiny minority but bring shame on the country as a whole. I agree, we are trying to overcome racism...schools emphasize that diversity is a strength, people should be treated equally, etc., and we all need to remember that every day, right?


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Sat 22 Sep 12 #69 
kevg
The Grumpinator

Tiny minority ?? Methinks you don't watch the news very often young Proofie.


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Sat 22 Sep 12 #70 
Proofreader
Member

I guess it IS wishful thinking. Maybe I am thinking only of the people I know and people in Denver in general...I know the South is problematic, but not ALL southerners are racist...far from it. The ones who ARE appear in the news, of course, while those who are not don't make news.


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Sat 22 Sep 12 #71 
southshoregirl

First of all THE DINGO AIGHT MY BABY! I love that line. Love saying it, too. It is ubiquitous.

As far as the hanging chairs go, I don't know about the hanging of them from trees. I haven't seen any pictures of that though I have seen plenty of empty chair spoofs. The problem is this. The American people are seething mad about Obama's actions. He is just not doing it for us and it has nothing to do with his black half. He is just not a very good leader. He is sneaky, he plays too much golf, he is never at very important events, he won't talk to Netanyahu, he hangs out with spurious people, he doesn't understand Economics 101, he is, in fact, a Liar in Chief. You shouldn't be surprised that there is a lot of resentment towards him, He is trying to force Roman Catholics to pay for abortions and birth control. He dismantled the main function of NASA to make it a public education center about Islam. Are you annoyed? I am. I am really mad. I hate the ideas he is trying to foist upon us. He just doesn't understand what a constitutional republic is and if he signs one more Executive Order on Friday afternoon I will probably start screaming and never stop. Yes, I have a LOT of pent up rage. This joker is a fool. I hope he loses and moves to Hawaii. An additional thought..this man was allowed into Harvard only because of affirmative action. That is a bad way to get in, don't you think? Merit is much better. I am not a racist. Ask me is I would vote for Col. West, Nikki Haley, Bobby Jindal, Susana Sanchez and I would say yes, without hesitation. But they aren't entangled with Chicago polititians. I want honesty in my federal government. AND THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL OBAMA COULD HAVE SHOWN ANY ACTIONS WORTHY OF HIM WINNING A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE. He should send it back. Ho hum. I will come up with more and no, my husband and I have worked really hard all our lives and we have paid plenty of taxes so NO I don't want to share what we have earned. Hate me if you will but that's just they way I am.


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Sat 22 Sep 12 #72 
southshoregirl

jmaxg, why do you think everyone is against you and all blacks? They aren't. I am not against you at all and I am against Obama because he has a failed Presidency. It is just that simple.


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Sun 23 Sep 12 #73 
southshoregirl

jackson, I am in NY state and I am not a racist. I never was and doubt I ever will be one. I know there is a lot that still exists. My whole thing with Obama is not about his race but about his abilities and inabilities to perform as even a mediocre President. I am surrounded by all diffent races, religions, whatever you can name and none of it bothers me but I expect honesty from every one I meet. I know it isn't possible but it is a hope.

What part of Texas are you from? I really want to visit Texas (and a lot of other states).


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Wed 26 Sep 12 #74 
Seve
Editor

How can playing too much golf be a bad thing for PODUS???? Some of the best compromises to make the government work during divided government were consumated on the links, regardless of political predispositions. That was the best venue for Eisenhower, Clinton, and even Gerald Ford to work out compromises to solve problems. That's when Ford wasn't hitting spectators with errant drives! A bit more comraderie and compromise would work wonders, but alas, these are dirty words now.

Sure hope that I don't have to hear continual rants about playing too much golf!


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Wed 26 Sep 12 #75 
soupy
Member

I am not racist,but I live in the South and like Jackson said it is rampant here, Like a bunch of rednecks thinking they are the elite.GIMME A BREAK!


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Wed 26 Sep 12 #76 
Ajax
Contributor

I think I'm racist. Probably am.


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Wed 26 Sep 12 #77 
soupy
Member

Nah I've chatted with u alot ajax I don't think ur a racist maybe a supremast but not a racist Ha Ha Ha i'm just joshing u!


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Wed 26 Sep 12 #78 
Ajax
Contributor

My shrink said that everyone is, if they are honest with themselves. I trust her judgement. She was probably right.


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Wed 26 Sep 12 #79 
soupy
Member

yes she's probably right to a certain extent even within our own races whatever they may be


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Wed 26 Sep 12 #80 
southshoregirl

Playing too much golf, Seve, is bad when the POTUS does it instead of handling the business of his office instead. I ouldn't care how much golf he played if it made him think any better. lol


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Wed 26 Sep 12 #81 
southshoregirl

Racism . Hmm. I don't know you well enough to even guess whether or not you are one. I am generally not a racist. My life decisions are not based upon the skin color of the people with whom I am dealing. Who care? There is probably some "racial memory" wish we all have but I don't know. Shrinks are usually not reliable, Ajax.


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Wed 26 Sep 12 #82 
Ajax
Contributor

To be honest, I'm not really clear on the precise meaning of racism. If I don't like Thai food cooked by Chinese cooks is that racist? I'm not sure. I think it might be. And the fact that they think nobody can tell the difference is probably racist. And that comment was a bit racist too. So yes. I'm racist. Although I would rather call it armchair anthropology. :)


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Wed 26 Sep 12 #83 
kevg
The Grumpinator

I've found that if you say something that somebody doesn't like you are a racist. Doesn't matter what is said, if someone complains you are automatically guilty, sometimes even if no-one complains !!


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Wed 26 Sep 12 #84 
Proofreader
Member

:) What a great summary of high school!!! Of all things kids want to be it probably is "most popular," wouldn't you say?? (:
Well, we are all race-conscious, but I don't think a person is a racist unless he/she puts a whole race in a negative category...it's appropriate to dislike/criticize/avoid anyone who is criminal, dishonest, hateful, cruel, etc., but there are no "bad" races....just bad individuals. I will now step down from my soapbox!
Ajax: Armchair anthropology rocks!
Seve: So does golf!


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Wed 26 Sep 12 #85 
southshoregirl

Hey, I know you will find this hard to believe but I was many things in high school, including a prevaricator, excellent student, a good athlete, a way above average musician, etc, etc and believe it or not WABZY was voted most popular! LOL I think it is rather funny but looking back, I did mix well with a wide variety of different types of people. I "floated through all zones" and I had a good experience. I was honored to be voted most popular but I was much more fond of my selection as class comedienne. Yeow. Me! I really am, too. I have to be very careful at all times or I could explode! Hahhahaha! Life is good. I graduated close to the top of my class but was not so immersed in schoolwork to attain the highest honor. I like to laugh and when I argue it is just for the sake of the "hunt ". Jackson, it sounds as if we would have been two peas in a pod. LOL


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Wed 26 Sep 12 #86 
southshoregirl

Getting back to racism, I do beive there is an essence that people have and which they are basically unaware of when the meet casually. Ajax not liking Thai food prepared by a Chinese chef is certainly not racist. She just prefers the flavor, the essence of the Thai cooking which has been passed along, subconciously through the Thais. That is not racist. I think racist and racial are the two most over used an incorrect labels pinned on people. I do believe that as generations keep reproducing they are passing on their family's trait, their tribal traits. This is just what I think. It is sort of a Lamarkian concept but Lamarkian theory is not something I have read in years. I can say it better in my own words by calling this pasage of traits, not related to DNA, at least ostenstibly, (now don't panic!) racial memory and it applies to everyone, regardless of race. It is interesting and I am going to read more about it. I can not substantiate this at this moment in time becase as I have clearly stated it is my opinion. It is interesting and :

Ajax, you are not a racist.


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Thu 27 Sep 12 #87 
soupy
Member

U know being prejudice is not the saME AS BEING A RACIST. i'LL LET YOU FIGURE THAT ONE OUT,BUT IT IS THE TRUTH BEING PREJUDICE AGAinst a whole race or nationality just because u don't understand them is not near as bad as being a racist against everyone who is not the same as you. Thats why God created us all and put us in different lands and places.


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Thu 27 Sep 12 #88 
Ajax
Contributor

What God would let people eat British food for so long until they found Vietnam? It just makes no sense.


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Thu 27 Sep 12 #89 
soupy
Member

I guess it doesn't have to make sense we just have to do what we can with what we got. NOW THAT DIDN'T MAKE SENSE BUT IT IS 0430AM HERE.


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Thu 27 Sep 12 #90 
Ajax
Contributor

Get back to work. Go save lives.


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Thu 27 Sep 12 #91 
soupy
Member

yeah tonite I'm better at that than I am playing games we will chat later tonight


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Thu 27 Sep 12 #92 
sally906
Contributor

when do the Americans actually vote? this year?


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Thu 27 Sep 12 #93 
soupy
Member

this year in november


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Thu 27 Sep 12 #94 
southshoregirl

I don't like Vietnamese food. Yes, I have eaten it. I have a Vietnamese friend. I like her, not her food ,no, I don't feel like eating her. What God would allow McDonald's to be invented?


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #95 
jmaxg
Contributor

The truth is that "racism" is a pure term that can apply to a great many people over a huge number of positions.

You can be inadvertently racist. And that's an important point. Because of one's upbringing or even their later personal experience, they might find themselves interpreting others differently but have no idea how or why. But in that case, you hope that as people mature they get better at looking over broad sections of the community and seeing how their way of thinking may cause offense to others.

Racism can also be necessary. In certain cases, it may be required to cater to the considerations of some over and above the requirements of the whole. We see that in Affirmative Action.....a process upheld my multiple courts at state and federal levels across multiple countries. In essence, Affirmative Action is racist.

Mitt Romney's recently exposed "47%" comment could be seen in that light. To Romney, it could be that people who aren't as rich as him basically offend him because they haven't tried hard enough. Mitt has always tried hard and done well. And to be honest, part of the reason he has done so well is because he applied himself, learnt the system and played it like a pianola. I gotta give him credit for that. Bain Capital still exists to this day and is still successful.

But remember too that he always had dear old Dad by his side with a coupla extra million just in case. His flippance at admitting that has caused bile to raise in many a university student that he has spoken to in addresses.

Romney's attitude may be thought of just like racism. It is ingrained and largely not his fault. But it is there, nonetheless.

But there is a difference between all that and bigotry. Romney and all that we have been talking about above is not bigoted, I don't think.

I have been having a fight with an old school mate back in Australia in Facebook. He is complaining about his noisy neighbours but is making a point that they are Aboriginal. Thus reinforcing a stereotype.....Aboriginals make bad neighbours.

I point out that according to statistics, by a ratio of maybe 200,000 to 1 or more, most bad or troublesome neighbours in Australia are NOT Aboriginal but, obviously, he is not interested in hearing that or my advice to stop trying to make them out as "bad black people" when they could be just "bad people".

But that is Australia. It is deeply ingrained. Not a bigoted attitude, but most definitely racist and uncaringly so.


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #96 
jmaxg
Contributor

Speaking of which.....

I have been doing some checking at comparative polls...

At this point back in 2008 when the then Senator Obama was up against Senator McCain, Obama was at 52.1 and McCain was at 44.5....a difference of 7.6 in favour of Obama.

Now? The current president is at 48.9 and Governor Romney is at 44.9.....a difference of 4.0 in favour of the President.

This is still a close race. Romney campaign missteps aside, this could still go either way.

The debates, starting on October 3rd, could prove very interesting.


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #97 
Proofreader
Member

Tonight on the TV news in Denver, people from the University of Denver talked about the debate being on that campus next week...the students are, as one said, really excited to have the debate at their school...tickets are not easy to get, so fortunately we can watch it on television. It's the biggest thing to happen in Denver since Peyton Manning came to the Broncos!!! (: Will all of you who are not in the U.S. be able to see it? If so, will you watch?


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #98 
Ajax
Contributor

Most people in Australia don't have Aboriginal neighbours. Most people in Australia would have whinged about their neighbours at least once.

Your "friend" is thinking this way:

Humans are mammals.
Whales are mammals.
Therefore, whales are humans.


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #99 
jmaxg
Contributor

That about sums it up.


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #100 
Ajax
Contributor

I pull out of those arguments. Except when it involves medicine or science, then I have a tanty.


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #101 
jmaxg
Contributor

It does help.

Addressing people for what they are, rather than who they are, is a step in the right direction.

What is a "tanty"?


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #102 
Ajax
Contributor

Tantrum.


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #103 
jmaxg
Contributor

Oh....riiiight.


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #104 
kevg
The Grumpinator

"Romney's attitude may be thought of just like racism."

O for crying out loud !! Not everything in the world is racism !!!!!!!!

Are your friends neighbours black, yes. Are they bad, yes. Therefore they are bad black people. Get over it.

Police are looking for a man who robbed a bank. Not much of a description is it, as much detail as possible please. If he's black or asian say so, it's not racism it's common sense.


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #105 
kevg
The Grumpinator

I should add it's highly unlikely that I will watch the election debate. The level of debate so far has been barely above kindergarten and , to be honest, I don't care who wins. The US military will still be strong and helping out where needed, that's enough for me.
To those of you not in the know I talk to Kansas most nights and what I hear makes me think you are all going down very soon. Been nice knowing ya.


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #106 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

This is probably the first time I've ever agreed with Kev on anything involving race.

If people are bad and people are black then they are "bad black people". There's nothing racist about pointing that out. Of course, if you extrapolate and say that all black people are bad then that's drifting (ok - hurtling) into racism.

Also, the ratio of bad Aboriginal neighbours to bad non-Aboriginal neighbours is irrelevant. If 100% of the Aboriginal population were bad neighbours then Aboriginals would be bad neighbours - it wouldn't matter whether there were twice as many bad non-Aboriginal neighbours or a million times as many.

I should add that I don't believe that to be the case. I'm not saying that they're bad neighbours, just pointing out the flaw in the logic.


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #107 
southshoregirl

Yeah, I am sick of all this talk about racism. Thanks, Kev and Stu, for spelling it out clearly. It is a load of crap.


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #108 
Proofreader
Member

Kumbaya.


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #109 
Ajax
Contributor

I wanted clarification on the term. It has been provided, even though I'm still not sure. If it isn't to your taste you may read something else. Like the bible. That's not racist. Lol


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Fri 28 Sep 12 #110 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Tell that to the Canaanites.


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Sun 30 Sep 12 #111 
southshoregirl

I think the worst place to find good examples of tolerance for ANYTHING is in any religious book. Seriously, how many wars have been caused because of religious disagreements. That is one realm where it is certainly not "Live and let live"!!!


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Sun 30 Sep 12 #112 
jmaxg
Contributor

All anyone has said above has confirmed what I said.

The only difference is that kevg is complaining that if they are black people, and bad people, what's wrong with calling them "bad black people"?

I say, why can't they be just "bad people"?

The difference may be subtle to some, but obvious to me and hopefully, some others.

In referring to their demographic, you are, at least subliminally, trying to distance and separate yourself from "them".....whoever "they" are.

People will always fight against that being pointed out, but I choose to point it out.

I think, ultimately, that's the healthier attitude.


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Sun 30 Sep 12 #113 
jmaxg
Contributor

A reminder.....

The first Presidential Debate is on October 3rd, 2012 evening (this Wednesday evening, Michigan time).

I, personally, think that Mitt Romney has a chance in hell. But given that it may require a total collapse of one of what may be considered one of the best jurist debaters in the history of the United States by virtue of his Harvard record alone, then I suggest Mitt brings his "A" game.

I also wish to point out that the polls, even though heavily swinging toward the current president, do not constitute a victory.


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Sun 30 Sep 12 #114 
Ajax
Contributor

I think you can tell by my "lol", which I only do when I think I'm hilarious, that I was being facetious.

Speaking of neighbours, I miss my neighbours from Sydney. They were Italian, and the gent would sing Italian love songs to his wife in the evenings and it was beautiful.


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Sun 30 Sep 12 #115 
southshoregirl

I think you are hilarious all the time, Ajax. You and I are people who can't live unless we have constant exposure to the absurd. It's very beautiful that that Italian man sang to his wife. How beautiful. Consider the alternatives.


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Sun 30 Sep 12 #116 
southshoregirl

jmaxg, a question for you: has anyone here every called someone a a "bad black person"? If the answer is no, why are you obsessed wih it?


You do realize that Obama uses a teleprompter, right? Just checking. He needs it. Remember "you didn't build that"? Hmmmmm. He didn't have a teleprompter that day. tsk tsk


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Tue 2 Oct 12 #117 
jmaxg
Contributor

Q1: Not that I have noticed.

As that was a "no", I guess I have to proceed to question 2....

Q2: I don't think I am obsessed. I may be more focused than some on the influences, both negative and positive, relative to the first black president of the United States, but I don't think that is obsessive. It's a historic period following a historic event and so, yes, I am keen to scrutinize. Historians are gonna do this over and over anyway....way more than little old me, or you.

To set the record straight though, I do think that Barack Obama is an exceptional politician. White, black or whatever, he fits certain criteria I have that set him apart. He is a great orator, has a universal presence, a proven intellectual capacity and, I feel, a genuine belief that America has yet to realize it's true potential. In short, I feel he is an able leader of the free world exercising diplomacy, realism and even discreet anger at the right times...both domestically and internationally.

If he was anything less than that, he would not have my support. Anyone that knows me would back that up. The President doesn't have my support because he's black. The President has my support because he's good.


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Tue 2 Oct 12 #118 
southshoregirl

OK, you are entitled you your opinion, too, about his abilities. I just wanted to be sure you weren't thinking there were a bunch of black-haters running around here.

The exceptionalism of Barack Obama will be judged in the future.


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Tue 2 Oct 12 #119 
jmaxg
Contributor

Any good leadership is fleeting and a rare thing. When it happens, it should be grasped with both hands. In the case of a natural leader who is also a good politician? That there is the rarest of all things.

History is replete with great leaders who were luke-warm politicians. Churchill was a shining example. One of the great leaders of all time who, despite lessons of the past, kept getting politically out-maneuvered.

Australia had Prime Minister Sir Robert Menzies, a political tyrant but a fair leader. But Sir Robert's allegiance though did not belong to Australia. It belonged instead to the "Mother Country". He is now infamous for that. Pity....at a pinch, Sir Robert should be favourably compared with most of the modern era leaders. The fact that he isn't is his own fault.

Australia's best leader of the modern era? A one-termer depicted as an undertaker by Australian political cartoonists. His name is Paul Keating and his undoing was his out-of-control arrogance. That detracted from his formidable intellect and leadership ability. His cabinet were absolutely devoted to their leader and they all admired him greatly, as did I. The Australian Labor Party (Australia's version of the US democratic party) shone under his direction. And Australia has benefited to this day because of policy instituted by that one man. But the voters hated him and he didn't seem to care. Next election? He was booted out. 30 years later? His reforms, in part, protected Australia from the world economic meltdown of 2008.

Then there is Robert Muldoon of New Zealand. The best example there can possible be of one country finally deciding "screw how things are done!" Robert Muldoon was the worst person to be in public life, possibly ever. A man that held the political system by the balls, but paid little or no attention to actually running anything or being a leader. This man actually showed up to a press conference once while completely drunk.....thus showing his complete disdain for the system that got him into office in the first place. He felt that his control of the New Zealand political system was enough. Little did he know that he caused the New Zealand people to turn a corner away from the "old school politics" as it was. As a result, the current New Zealand political system, while complicated, is now geared to lessen the political impact, and favoured toward the "job-doers". There is a lesson right there.

Back to Australia, and we have Prime Minister John Howard. A man once described by himself as "Lazarus with a triple bypass" in that he was leader of the conservative party, then dumped. Then leader, then dumped. Then leader........and the conservatives got elected and he become the longest lasting Prime Minister in Australian history. From my perspective, I both loathe and admire this man. I admire his absolute control of the political system. So much so that his tactics have been observed and adopted by other political parties around the world. US conservatives like Karl Rove use John Howard's political tactics as a playbook, particularly his tactic of blocking the operating budget of a federal government. I myself regard this person as a monster who saw fit to circumvent the will of the Australian people during a referendum on becoming a republic. He knew what to do and he did it and the Australian voter played along and the referendum got destroyed. But I saw what happened and I'll never forgive him for that......it was evil and conceited and self-serving.

So you see, being a leader is not a sure thing. Ronald Reagan was a leader but for some reason listened to terrible advice and worse, he accepted it! "Trickle down" is now Reagan's legacy. Jimmy Carter fancied himself as a leader, but didn't listen to any advice, or too much.....either way, he failed by burning, or really vaporizing any bridges he had back to the Congress of the United States.

I see the current president as less than one of the above and equal to or better than the rest.

That's not a "black" or "white" thing. That is just me reviewing what I know and compare.


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Tue 2 Oct 12 #120 
Ajax
Contributor

I love John Howard. I also don't want to be a republic.

John Howard's government got things done. The current government can't get a thing done with all their infighting and faffing around.

I see Mr Obama as a man who thinks before he acts. I like that in a human being.

Nobody is faultless.


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Tue 2 Oct 12 #121 
southshoregirl

We have not had a federal budget in four years. It is not because the republicans have blocked it. The Democrats had a lock on all three houses of Congress for over 2 years. Obama did nothing. I think he is not a person who thinks of anything but playing golf and himself. I don't think he is a leader at all, unless you like to be ruled by Friday afternoon executive orders.

I like John Howard, too. I don't care one way or another whether Australia becomes a republic. The way I see it it is none of my business what happens in any country but mine excpt for us to support our allies when they need our help.

As I said before, the book is out on Obama. If he turns out to be a great leader somehow I will be greatly surprised. I reserve judgement on the man.


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Tue 2 Oct 12 #122 
kevg
The Grumpinator

I remember John Howard handing out the winners madals when England beat Australia in 2003 World Cup, looked like his dog had died and he needed out of there. I believe he apologised to the England team afterwards but he certainly wasn't happy.


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Wed 3 Oct 12 #123 
southshoregirl

Aw, maybe his little doggie had died, Kev! Maybe the dingo aight it!


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Thu 4 Oct 12 #124 
jmaxg
Contributor

Very funny SSG. I said my point and I stick by it. Azaria Chamberlain is a real person......not a comedy cliche.

As for John Howard and the whole 'republican' thing?

Ok......all I know is when I was a soldier, as if I will ever be NOT a soldier, I pledged allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second.

I fully believed in that statement and made it accepting Her as my Commander-in-Chief. Nothing has changed apart from me not being an authorised soldier anymore.

But somewhere along the line, I asked myself a question........why can't I pledge allegiance to the people of Australia and still do the same job?

The answer? Australia does not have a constitution or anything to "pledge allegiance" to.

Now, some will pop up waving booklets with titles like "The Constitution of Australia" or "The Australian Constitution", but all those booklets contain are excerpts, edited at that, of portions of a British Act of Parliament......or at the very least, stipulations as allowed by the same British Act of Parliament.

But Australia itself is still only empowered to exist as a result of the will of British Parliament and nothing more. You can lay all the fancy legal exemptions you like, but that is the bottom line.

And so, as a soldier, I respectfully ask the question.......why can't I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of Australia and to my people and territory? And THEN why can't I pledge my allegiance to the Commonwealth of Nations and our leader, Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second? I think, as a soldier, it's an important distinction. It's important for a soldier to declare "As much as I love and respect Her Majesty, my country and my people come first."

A small matter to some, but it is the key to what being a soldier is. We sign on knowing our lives are at stake. I would appreciate other Australians, and other people, understanding that.

Churchill ordering the reversing of the reinforcement ships during the Siege of Singapore in World War II is a perfect example of that.

What you feel about John Howard is cool. But hard, cold, historical reality has a place too.


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Thu 4 Oct 12 #125 
jmaxg
Contributor

Before Ajax asks 'what has this got to do with anything above?'.......

Sir Robert Menzies adored Lord Winston Churchill.

John Howard adored Sir Robert Menzies.

My father adored all three and I adored him.

That never meant I couldn't think for myself.


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Thu 4 Oct 12 #126 
jmaxg
Contributor

The First Presidential Debate - Domestic Policy

Date: October 3rd, 2012

Venue: The University of Denver, Colorado, USA

Adjudicator: Jim Lehrer of PBS (Public Broadcasting Service)

Opinion: I might have to give this one to Governor Romney. And, as I listen to all the commentators squealing that the President could have done better, that he was held back because of his advisor's need for him to seem "presidential", I am sitting here and wondering why there has to be emphasis on being "presidential", when you are the President? Ok....maybe that's just me.

Anyhoo, I can describe it like this.....Governor Romney was energetic, President Obama seemed the opposite.

I myself detected two misstatements and one outright lie by Governor Romney and none by the President. But we shall see.

We should leave that for the "Liar, liar, pant's on fire" crowd.


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Thu 4 Oct 12 #127 
jmaxg
Contributor

Governor Romney and the President have two more debates.......one of them will be foreign policy.

I can see a problem in that debate for the Governor.....

*paraphrasing.....

"Governor Romney......given the status of international upheaval, the protests in Libya and Egypt, the death of the Libyan Ambassador, what would you recommend to alleviate pressure?"

Romney: "I would respectfully request of both nations that they respect the sovereignty of the United States."

Adjudicator: "Mr. President?"

Obama: "What the hell do you think I have been doing for four years? Have you seen my Secretary of State? Madam Clinton will literally use the Force on you."

Adjudicator: "Mr. President.....please! What have you, yourself done to contribute to international security."

Obama: "Nothing. Oh, wait, I forgot, I ORDERED THE LOCATION AND DESTRUCTION OF USAMA BIN LADEN."

Adjudicator: "Governor Romney?"

Romney: "Whilst the President's effort is acknowledged, it's a big world out there. What other countries feel safer now?"

Adjudicator: "Mr. President?"

Obama: "Ok, I'm just guessing here, but.....Angola, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, the Bahamas, Barbados, Bolivia, Cape Verde, Chile......"

Romney: "Objection!"

Adjudicator: "That's enough Mr. President!"

Obama: "......Columbia, Denmark, Ecuador. Wait, I haven't finished....I still have the "F"s and "G"s.


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Thu 4 Oct 12 #128 
kevg
The Grumpinator

"Churchill ordering the reversing of the reinforcement ships during the Siege of Singapore in World War II is a perfect example of that."

I'm lost, prefect example of what ?? We've had this discussion before. 2 large British warships were sunk by Japanese bombers, you would have sent the troopships ahead into that ??
Singapore didn't need reinforcing, the troops there outnumbered the Japanese by nearly 3-1. What they needed was effective leadership, sadly lacking by Percival.
Yes, the big guns could fire landward despite rumours to the contrary.


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Thu 4 Oct 12 #129 
kevg
The Grumpinator

Polls in today's papers show 70% of voters think Romney won the first debate.
O'Bama hasn't done anything in his Presidency now looks like he's not going to fight for it.


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Fri 5 Oct 12 #130 
soupy
Member

Hey did you guys know that yestersay 100412 was the 6th anniversary of Steve Irwins death? I saw it on The Today Show
No smart a-- remarks Kevg


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Fri 5 Oct 12 #131 
jackson
Contributor

hell of a guy


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Fri 5 Oct 12 #132 
southshoregirl

Irwin was a phenomenal man. I loved him for his deep passion for animals and his compassion for them. He was one in a million, soupy. I mean that,too.


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Fri 5 Oct 12 #133 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

There's an Aussie band called The Whitlams who have a lyric "She was one in a million, so there's five more just in New South Wales".

Sorry, complete tangent but the song always springs to mind when someone says one in a million...


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Fri 5 Oct 12 #134 
southshoregirl

jmaxg, I am not going to waste my time arguing with you about Obama. He looked stupid and disoriented during the debate. Romney had all his ducks in a row. He didn't lie about anything. The reason Obama looked bad is simple. He does someone else's bidding and he is a liar, yes, a LIAR, and he is not brilliant, nor a brilliant orator as you so often claim. He reads well off a teleprompter. Yes, he does that very well.

He has a real plan for America as cooked up with his radical buddies, and that is to turn America into a very ordinary, lowly country which does nothing special, produces only averagely, well, you get the picture, and then we can be part of the One World Society. To that I say NUTS! And to you I ask why do you defend such a misfit so staunchly? I just don't understand. He is not doing anythig to help Americans at all. Please answer that for me.

As far as Obama goes, the State Department had 13 PLEAS for more security in Libya and none were forthcoming. WHY? jmaxg!!! I want an answer from you!!! You say a lot all the time which is fiction you dream up, scenarios which are amusing to some, perhaps, but not to me, and I WANT AN ANSWER! DAMN IT!
Killing Bin Laden? Valerie Jarrett is running the show in that White House and everyone knows it. Oh, I could go on and on and NO, I will not provide you with sources because I can blather on as well as the next guy, who happens to be you in this case.

The bottom line is this. Obama flunked his first exam terribly. He scowled, and glared and he looked at times as if blood would squirt out of his ears. He never looked anyone in the eye. Romney was at ease, having been an ex-governor who actually did a great job in a crazy state. He was poised, polite, let Obama speak over his alotted time and overcame the obstacle of having Jim Lehrer as the Moderator. He was superb and had superb ideas and ideas to help us solve our problems in reasonable way. YES HE WON BIG TIME! He was at ease being himself. I was actually surprised at how much I liked him. I hadn't been convinced yet, since I am an Independent.

There are two more debates and of course, (hahaha) the Vice Presidential debates next week. Poor Obama stuck with Smoking Joe. Well, maybe Paul Ryan will have a bad night.

Now get me those answers, jmax and stop drifting in the ether. This is serious stuff. And remember that if Obama gets elected things in this country will get worse. Much worse. We'll talk about THAT later.

And by the way, you had damned well be loyal when you sign yourself into an army. That is the only correct thing to do.


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Fri 5 Oct 12 #135 
kevg
The Grumpinator

deranged and on this site ?? surely not ??


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Fri 5 Oct 12 #136 
Proofreader
Member

Do you think it's true, as the cliche states, that there is a fine line between genius and madness? I kind of like the idea...but if you are crazy, can you morph over that fine line to genius? I'm afraid it only works one way -- genius to nutcase. And so I say all the Supersmarts on this site better watch it with all their high-falutin' scores.....
they may just freak out...and then we Lowscorers will take over. Idiots unite!!!


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #137 
jackson
Contributor

there are no idiots on this site, though it's possible you'll see an idiotic statement or 2. or 3. possibly from me. or anybody.


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #138 
Ajax
Contributor

It is from the days when autism was seen as madness.


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #139 
jmaxg
Contributor

LOL....well, in that case, I might throw me hat in for President if the latest Kevvie was any indication. Two 2 granders and a whole lot of bottom feeding. Not me best effort.

Okie, back to business and SSG's DEMANDED answers.....

Answer 1: To be honest, I really don't think I have defended the current president all that staunchly. As a matter of fact, I have criticized him in past forums. But I do admit to making a big deal, repeatedly, about a congress that had stated time after time, in English, that they will do whatever it took to deny the President's legislative agenda even to the point of not allowing him to do his job. I think that has always been my central beef.

There are terms associated with the obstruction of the natural course of government. For example, the definition of "sedition" may include the "...incitement of discontent (or resistance) to lawful authority." (Wikipedia)

BUT, lucky that is not the case here........due ONLY to congressional technicalities.

Answer 2: There were not "13 PLEAS" for more security by the Libyan Embassy. (link) Republican congressional authors of a letter to the Secretary of State concerning the Libyan Embassy attack cited 13 alleged incidents of previous attacks against the embassy. Only those incidents were not confirmed by the embassy itself and the scope of the attacks ranged from unconfirmed RPG (rocket propelled grenade) firings to nastily worded postings on Facebook. Appropriately, the State Department and the Office of the President let it slide because, quite frankly, they have more important things to do.

Ok, there we go. I know SSG will not be happy with those responses but then again, I was not happy about being ordered to give them.

And it goes without saying that if she does that again, I will not do this again.

We sweet with that? Cool. Let's move on.


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #140 
kevg
The Grumpinator

autism isn't madness it is what we sometimes call "idiot savant" although unusual to find one with a sense of humour


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #141 
jmaxg
Contributor

Actually Doc. Factenstein, The Whitlams were a great band along with others like the three man Queensland team called Regurgitator and the Victorian band of balacl'ved subversives called TISM.

Bands with an "in-your-face" approach that never lost sight of the requirement to be musically good as well as "in-your-face".

I always felt though that these bands got their inspiration from older Aussie bands like "Goanna" and "Mental as Anything".


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #142 
jmaxg
Contributor

You are generalising kev. Autism does not necessarily include "savant" tendencies.

The term 'idiot' is not applied anymore in connection with 'savant', by the way. Someone is either a 'savant' or they are not.

And even the term 'savant' is undergoing some redefining thanks to better studies of autism and Asperger Syndrome.

But for the people observing kev? Feel secure.....the term 'idiot' still means the same thing.


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #143 
kevg
The Grumpinator

sorry old chap but to me the wording is still the same. only oversensitive people who try to establish their progressive credentials will argue with the original medical diagnoses.


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #144 
jmaxg
Contributor

Speaking of idiots like the immediately above, late night show host and former "Saturday Night Live" performer, Jimmy Fallon is not a guy I usually turn to for incisive comedy. But I even think he out performed the legendary Jon Stewart with this latest one based on Wednesday's debate....



Unbelievably, Fallon's team made a good observation and a good point.

Just a pity President Obama didn't.


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #145 
jmaxg
Contributor

Oh...one more thing.....Sesame Street supporters are on the rampage.

Governor Romney, in Wednesday's debate, said outright he will strip the subsidy funding for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. The CPB is the overseeing authority for all PBS or Public Broadcasting System radio and television stations. PBS are responsible for distributing "Sesame Street" to America and to the World.

A world without Big Bird, Elmo, Grover, Oscar or Bert and Ernie?

Be afraid, be very afraid.


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #146 
southshoregirl

jmaxg, please go back and reread the link you inserted in your response to me. I read it differently from the way you did. It was saying that Jay Carney would not comment on 13 reports of attacks with things for IEDs to RPG attacks. He had no comment. Of course, he didn't. Why would he? It will all come out in the wash. Four people died because the information transmitted to the State Department was apparently ignored. It was a ...what did Obama call it? Oh yes...A BUMP IN THE ROAD.

The clinical parameter for being an idiot is having an IQ under 60. Think about that, everyone, before tossing the word around.

There can always be a Big Bird and Elmo, and all the rest of them. The point is this. The public doesn't have to finance this programming. Who decided that Sesame Street is "good" for kids to watch? Just my opinion but I think showing kids 15 second clips of TV on a topic is bad. It doesn't give gids any continuity of learning. It hops around. I don't think it is that good for kids and the show makes plenty of money without using taxpayers money. When they sell a Big Bird lunchbox to someone do you get a royalty check? Afterall your dime went into the development of that show. Does that make sense? It is so crystal clear to me but I am too tired to continue now.


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #147 
jmaxg
Contributor

Message back from old chap......no, the wording is NOT the same.

I can't be sure, but in the medical world, the world responsible for these terms, the term "idiot" was separated from "savant" over ten years ago........probably more.....or probably was never even there at all.

The fact that you use it does not qualify it as a medical term. I, myself used it until I was properly advised about certain technicalities about 15 years ago and I haven't used it since.

But you go right ahead. Of course, you know better.

For the record, the term "savant" is valid. But the association between "savant" and autism or asperger is not. BUT, it is true that the subjects of these conditions sometimes develop higher level brain function that either stands out like a sore thumb, or is so "higher level" that current thinking is still catching up with it.

The current thinking is that Albert Einstein had Asperger's Syndrome. His symptoms, according to historical reports, are classic. His inability to handle Quantum Physics also lends itself to this theory even though his "thought experiments" contributed to Quantum rather than detract from it.

I, myself, am entranced by the condition despite the horrors of the people going through it. As I discussed with a friend a while ago, Autism and Asperger's offer us an opportunity to see outside of the box. They may well be Mother Nature's way of saying "Understand that and you will understand it all.".

To current subjects of these conditions, I hope I haven't belittled you in any way.

But then again, how can you be belittled? You count the great Temple Grandin amongst your fellowship.

:-)


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #148 
soupy
Member

Hey dr fac whatever it is that ur on I want some of it just kidding u should hear my real life tangents pity the poor people I work with.
How many geniuses are on this site anyway I know of three or four right off the top OH well too much for me to take in . And can we PLEASE stop talking politics for a day or two?


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #149 
Ajax
Contributor

I'm standard aspergers. I'm not a savant in anything. I have a high IQ but I don't do anything with it. That causes me much depression and madness. The only thing stopping my brain from achieving complete atrophy is reading and maybe Factacular, although that is hard to quantify. ;)

The last I read of quantum physics was that it wasn't even fact, so give Mr One Stone a break. He wasn't here 20 years ago. Maybe I should get up to date on physics, since my husband smoked his science degree.


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #150 
southshoregirl

Autism and its variations are all real but I was merely pointing out to jmaxg that there is a list of arcane (perhaps) names for idiot, moron, etc and idiot happens to be under a 60 IQ. Clearly, there are savants and whether they have autism in any form is something I am not the one to ask. I have several friends who have Asperger's and they are all really bright and all have extremely different personalities. There are plenty of idiots who are garden variety.


soupy, this is where we knock heads until we are sick of it. Topics run their courses and then die down. There is a scant chance that politics will die down before Election Day so maybe you want to start a new discussion page for when this is a pain in the ass but don't think for a minute that we won't invade your space if it looks like fun!


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #151 
soupy
Member

I'm out of heah!


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #152 
jmaxg
Contributor

Quantum aside, ok? I watched "Temple Grandin" many times.

I TOTALLY GOT how she put herself on all fours to see a cow's point of view.

(Temple Grandin's article "No Moos is Good Moos")

I TOTALLY GOT that her mission was to relieve stress in cattle prior to getting a bolt in the head.

She thought of this. Nobody else. Now her abattoir methods are in play across two thirds of North America.

I wish my legacy was that.


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #153 
jmaxg
Contributor

SSG, please go back and review. What you are saying has no bearing on what is being discussed.

For the record, I have answered your "demanded" questions.

Also for the record, don't do that again. It was just plain rude.

If you do, I will simply ignore you.


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #154 
jmaxg
Contributor

soupy? Just in case you haven't figured it out, this is a political forum.

A tip would be the title of "It's Time - The Presidentional Election - 2012".

Yes, it's true that we get sidetracked. But only for the right reasons.


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #155 
soupy
Member

Okey Doke I am still out of here


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #156 
jmaxg
Contributor

Not a problem.....your call.


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Sat 6 Oct 12 #157 
southshoregirl

No demands. I don't want to be rude. Would you please take a look at the link you sent and tell me what you think it says?


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Sun 7 Oct 12 #158 
Ajax
Contributor

I still admire someone who doesn't use the attack as an excuse for warmongering. Australians seem to be quite impressed with this.


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Sun 7 Oct 12 #159 
southshoregirl

I am impresed by people who know their facts, too, Ajax.


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Tue 9 Oct 12 #160 
jmaxg
Contributor

Anyhoo....

The polls are definitely tightening as a result of the debate.

Much media comment is currently being made however of how Governor Romney made totally contradictory statements to previous speeches and policy releases and that commentary appears to be intensifying. The most prominent example is that while making his statement during the debate that (paraphrasing) "pre-existing conditions will be acceptable under a Romney alternative medical plan", that was promptly reversed by a Romney campaign representative during the following back stage "spin session" with no explanation as to why the Governor said it during the debate. His spin team referred to it as an "adjustment". In any case, what the Governor said in the debate, according to Romney representatives, was incorrect......medical insurance can still disallow people based on a pre-existing condition under an alternative Romney plan IF he is able to repeal the "Affordable Care Act" and IF he gets elected.

Therefore, either Governor Romney has no idea of what his alternative medical plan is, or he just plain lied. I'll leave that to everyone else to decide. I know what I think, but that is immaterial.

The "Medicare 716 Billion" misstatement and "5 Trillion in tax cuts? Nope, not me" aside, that apparently deliberate deception regarding his medical plan, done in a totally open way and straight to the faces of the American people in a debate forum? He's got cahones, I'll give the Governor that.

Anyway, he might have a bigger problem statistically speaking.

Notwithstanding what is coming in this week's Vice-Presidential Debate......and the reports are that the gloves are off and current Vice President Joe Biden is spoiling for a fight.....and it's proven that he can, there is an apparent number-crunching problem relative to electoral college votes for the Governor.

The fact remains, of the current designated swing states, Governor Romney will have to "flip" the results of almost every swing state to get the White House.

Not saying it can't be done. It's just never been done before.


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Tue 9 Oct 12 #161 
jmaxg
Contributor

Current Electoral College Vote Status - According to Likely or Near Likely Vote Status based on Traditional Trends and Current Polls of States in the Union

(Ref: RealClearPolitics.com)

TOTAL ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTES REQUIRED TO BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES = 270

Current Candidate Status

Obama/Biden - 201 Electoral College Votes

Romney/Ryan - 191 Electoral College Votes

Electoral College Votes required by Obama/Biden = 69

Electoral College Votes required by Romney/Ryan = 79

Undecided

(state - electoral votes)

Colorado - 9
Florida - 29
Iowa - 6
Michigan - 16
Nevada - 6
New Hampshire - 4
North Carolina - 15
Ohio - 18
Pennsylvania - 20
Virginia - 13
Wisconsin - 10

TOTAL - 146


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Tue 9 Oct 12 #162 
southshoregirl

The audacity of hope makes you feel better, jmaxg. That's cool.


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Wed 10 Oct 12 #163 
Ajax
Contributor

Australian politics is actually very interesting at the moment. Such a rarity.


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Wed 10 Oct 12 #164 
jmaxg
Contributor

Just having a look in the Aussie newspaper websites.

This Peter Slipper/Speaker of the House resignation thing seems very tacky.

I don't know much about current political personalities back in Oz now, after 10 years here in the US, but the guts of the Speaker of the House thing looks like it should be filed under "Aye Carumba!!"


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Wed 10 Oct 12 #165 
southshoregirl

What would be a good Aussie newspaper to take a look at? It seems fair that I should know a bit of what is happening there.


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Wed 10 Oct 12 #166 
jmaxg
Contributor

I see now that a larger issue has opened up in the aftermath of the Peter Slipper resignation in that the Australian Prime Minister, Ms. Julia Gillard, has delivered a speech in Parliament during question time concerning sexism that is going viral around the world.

There's an article in The Age newspaper website that can be found here. I found the accompanying video (top of web page) very illuminating about the whole issue. I hope it plays for others even though it's a tad long at over 8 minutes. Also a good editorial link on the same page.

For the video of Prime Minister Julia Gillard delivering her so-called "misogyny" speech, you can go to the ABC.net.au article here. It's a little over 15 minutes long.

(some great links on that webpage too giving more information about the overall issue)

If that link doesn't work, here's the YouTube embed....



Looks like things are heating up down under. Wait.....did that come out right? I meant geographically speaking, of course.

Oh damn! In checking all this out, my dish water has gone cold and my cookies have burnt! Aww crap.


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Wed 10 Oct 12 #167 
Ajax
Contributor

The end result is that we have absolutely nobody that we are prepared to vote for next time. But they are digging graves faster than they can produce bodies.


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Wed 10 Oct 12 #168 
Ajax
Contributor

ssg, jmaxg is right. Those two news sites are perhaps the best we have on offer.


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Thu 11 Oct 12 #169 
jmaxg
Contributor

It's certainly a fascinating phase that the Australian Parliament is going through and I'd like to thank Ajax for bringing it to our attention.

The look on the Leader of the Opposition, Tony Abbott's face is priceless. He was a fairy's fart away from turning into an Easter Island head, it seemed to me. There was one bit when you could see him turning to his opposition front bench and I couldn't help thinking he might have been uttering a famous line from the movie "Speed" when things weren't going very well........"You're fired! You're all f&^%ing fired!!". The truth of the matter is, from what I could see, he walked into that one himself.

This was a speech that had the potential to happen sooner or later. Such areas of society like "parliament" or "congress", in all countries, are subject to institutionalization and Australia is no exception. I am not a big fan of Margaret Thatcher, but when I watched "The Iron Lady", I was horrified to see the sexist drivel that she had to endure. Imagine what the first female members of the US Congress, House of Representatives or Senate, had to contend with.

In this particular case, after the exposing of the text messages and the subsequent resignation of the Speaker of the House, I can't help thinking that a trap was set by Prime Minister Gillard and the Leader of the Opposition stumbled into it. Ok then, so be it. She said a lot of things that needed to be said and put the "Good Old Boys" network on notice. In essence, all she said was "Stop with the snickering schoolboy crap and grow up!".

And good on her, I say. She's been attacked because she's not married, she's been attacked because she doesn't believe in God, she's been attacked for being too compromising and attacked for being uncompromising, and even attacked for leaving her shoe at a restaurant after being bushwhacked by demonstrators.....something that was more the fault of her security detail than her. But underpinning it all, I am willing to wager, is the extra pressure on her for what is becoming the most boring of all reasons........because she fills the bosses slot and she is not a male.

Well, boo-bloody-hoo. Accept it and get on with your jobs.

Thanks again Ajax.


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Thu 11 Oct 12 #170 
jmaxg
Contributor

Post#162 (above) has been updated as a result of post debate poll fluctuations.

Three more states have been added to the "undecided" list and figures have been amended accordingly.


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Thu 11 Oct 12 #171 
Ajax
Contributor

Oh, if you need further clarification, read what Alan Jones has been up to in the last week or so. That will add some extra context.


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Thu 11 Oct 12 #172 
jmaxg
Contributor

Alan Jones, the Sydney broadcaster?


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Thu 11 Oct 12 #173 
jmaxg
Contributor

Wait....got it....so Alan Jones, the notoriously right wing Sydney radio commentator, the equivalent of the United States' Rush Limbaugh, said the following at a Liberal Party (conservative party) club dinner in reference to the Australian Prime Minister's recently deceased father, John....

"...died a few weeks ago of shame."

To put it into context, I am sure Alan Jones was talking about his presumption (Alan Jones, not the Prime Minister's father) over the Prime Minister's political tactics. But even in that context, it was such a low thing to say. How could Alan Jones possibly presume to know what the father of the Australian Prime Minister felt?

But even if it was the OTHER context......the elephant in the room......that Jones was inferring that he died of shame because his own daughter had risen to the most powerful position in the land......that context?

Then, despite any apologies he is currently making, Mr. Jones deserves the fate he has been always pining for.........to be despised and outcast by all levels of Australian society........to be maligned and insulted and stomped on in retribution for the evil creature he is.

Knowing Alan Jones' past commentary, I have always had a suspicion that was his intention.......to go too far, then push it past too far.

If I was the Prime Minister's father and on my death bed, there would be a tear in my eye as my pride swelled one final time.


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Thu 11 Oct 12 #174 
Ajax
Contributor

His apology was one of those non-apologies, where he said he should apologise but never actually got around to it, being diverted as he was by enumerating the faults of the PM and women in general.. It was that that she was referring to, and Mr Rabbit's subsequent suggestion that the government should already have died of shame, that got her so fired up in video.


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Thu 11 Oct 12 #175 
jmaxg
Contributor

Then it appears it was a speech she had to give.....an apolitical speech and she gave it both barrels.

As a consequence, ears have pricked up all over the world.

You're right......she appears to have been pushed into this.

And that'll do it. I was in a similar "having a bad day" situation once when all my subordinates seemed to go crazy and I just lost it. I channeled my RSM father and just applied every bit of authority my two stripes gave me and I attacked. It turned out to be one of my finest days in the service of Her Majesty.

It's not a "PMS" thing. It's simply an "I've had it up to HERE!!" thing.


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Fri 12 Oct 12 #176 
southshoregirl

I will read all the posts you have put up for me to read. I have not had time to pay proper attention to them with my son getting married so soon and having Lyme Disease. I have never been so exhausted in my life. I will absolutely read these as soon as possible. I hope I don't doze off at my son's wedding. I have been nodding off at least a half dozen times a day. Thanks for posting them.


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Fri 12 Oct 12 #177 
shortbreadforme27
Contributor

Bring back Hilary she will sort u all out. As for Romney and Obama if they are the best you have got help the rest of the free world. Sadly in the UK we have no one with any backbone or forward thinking policies to bring the world back to an even keel. The Cameron v Milliband show with a guest appearance by Clegg is as entertaining as a fart in a spacesuit.


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Fri 12 Oct 12 #178 
southshoregirl

With all due respect, shortie, Hilary is probably the worst possible president we could have. Her handling of the Libya situation has been abysmal. No Thanks. I would be glad to ask her if she is willing to relocate if you like?


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Fri 12 Oct 12 #179 
southshoregirl

Wow! Listening to the Australians sound just like the US news except that Americans speak faster and if you just change the names it could be a segment of US politics. I guess people are pretty similar the world over. lol


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Sat 13 Oct 12 #180 
Ajax
Contributor

What did Hilary do or not do? Didn't really hear much or pay any attention to her.


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Sat 13 Oct 12 #181 
jmaxg
Contributor

Hilary Rodham was a former law degree gainer who once was a "Barry Goldwater Gal" and a devout republican (conservative - right of centre).

Further along, she found herself part of the legal team formed to depose the then President Nixon in the midst and the aftermath of the Watergate and "missing 18 minutes" of that presidential crisis.

All along, she was a girlfriend of a certain future Oxford Scholar by the name of William Jefferson Clinton.

By the time that William Jefferson Clinton, now known as Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, they were married.

Bill Clinton then became the 42nd President of the United States and Hilary Clinton became the First Lady.

At the end of Bill Clinton's two terms, Hilary Clinton ran to be a senator of the state of New York and she was elected.

She then became "Hilary Rodham Clinton" and senator of the Great State of New York.

Come the 2008 election for President of the United States and Hilary Rodham Clinton was considered the 2,000 pound gorilla in the room when it came to democratic preselection. But a guy called "Barack Obama" popped up.

Myself and Java immediately picked Hilary Rodham Clinton to be our nominee. We were wrong. But as soon as the designated selection was known, Java and I were behind him 200%.

Upon being elected to the position of President of the United States, Barack Obama, very shortly afterwards, asked Senator Hilary Rodham Clinton to be his Secretary of State. She accepted and thereafter became the "Secretary of State" of the United States of America.


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Sat 13 Oct 12 #182 
Ajax
Contributor

I know who she is. What did she do or not do on the Libya situation?


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Sat 13 Oct 12 #183 
jmaxg
Contributor

Oh.

Well, the US embassy in Libya got attacked by Al Qaeda by rocket propelled grenades and mortars. The attack was not only good, it was shockingly good.......the US Ambassador to Libya was killed, along with three staff.

At first, the world thought that the attack was in response to that brainless video on YouTube that was an Islamic based summary of some brainless and terribly offensive movie that some idiot had made here in the US of A.

The protest in Egypt was exactly that.

But now, the US Congress has opened an inquiry as to whether or not the embassy in Libya should have been attacked and the question of whether increased security would have stopped this Al Qaeda cell from attacking the embassy in the first place.

To me, this is a dopey argument. NOTHING would have stopped this Al Qaeda cell from attacking and the argument as to whether the Ambassador would be still alive is esoteric at best.

I ask where the Libyan security was, yes, I ask that. But actual embassy security? The current congressional inquiry relies on testimony of pissed off and scared embassy staff that have no connection whatsoever with higher level embassy activity. The ONE guy that had authority to testify in front of the congressional committee? His testimony was dismissed by the inquiry chairman, Darryl Issa, committee chairman.......a republican on the eve of a presidential election.

Please excuse my inability to handle the crap that is being handed to me.


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Sat 13 Oct 12 #184 
jmaxg
Contributor

Post#162 (above) has been updated as a result of post debate poll fluctuations.

One more state have been added to the "undecided" list and figures have been amended accordingly.


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Sat 13 Oct 12 #185 
southshoregirl

jmaxg, that is so wrong....what have you been smoking? Did you actually say it was good that four Americans were killed in the attack at the Consulate in Benghazi? That was GOOD? NO, that was bad. Remember that, since you want to become an American citizen. That means it is BAD, very bad and tragic that the State Department, headed by Hillary Clinton didn't send additional security to protect the American Ambassador and the three Navy Seals (retired) who were also killed. What is wrong with you? There is nothing good about what happened there and mark my work, heads will roll over this incident and it is quite likely that Hillary Clinton's head will be one of them. Your statement is so wrong, so evil and shows that you don't deserve to be an American. You should go back to where you came from. Americans never think it is "good" when another American is killed in a terrorist attack. You know what is bad? YOU are bad because you don't "GET IT". I suggest that you stop telling people your idiotic opinions.

Hillary Clinton is a second rate attorney who worked for Rose Law Firm and her activities there have been suspect.. She had to take the bar exam TWICE to get her license. Not too bright, I would say. Don't portray her as if she is a special sort of woman. Her election to Senator in NY was a disgraceful bit of carpert-bagging if I have ever seen it. Of course she would win in NYS. Any liberal Democrat would win.

Hillary Clinton is a mediocre fool who has botched the total Arab Spring and she is hiding from taking responsiblity for the "Benghazi Bungle". Don't tell Ajax it is good that four Americans are dead . And don't get annoyed that Issa is investigating the incident. He is supposed to do that as the Chairman of the Ways and Means commitee.. And Trey Gowdy is latched onto this like a gila monster as he should be. They are doing the right thing. Who said the government should be a tyranny and run without rules.


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Sat 13 Oct 12 #186 
Proofreader
Member

I don't think he means it was good that people were killed. A "good" attack is one that accomplishes its purpose. In that sense, unfortunately, it was a very good attack. And a tragedy for the US and all peace-loving people.


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Sat 13 Oct 12 #187 
southshoregirl

I hope you are right, Proof. It is a tragedy for us and there is no other way to view it. I get so angry that those people asked 13 times for extra security and didn't get help. It was so terrible that our people were murderded because the State Department didn't think it was worth sending any help. It is also terrible that the whole mess turned into a cover up. I just think it should never be taken lightly by any American.


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Sun 14 Oct 12 #188 
Ajax
Contributor

How did she botch the Arab Spring? Was it her's to botch?


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Sun 14 Oct 12 #189 
sally906
Contributor

Yeah Ajax -I'd like to know too - I don't get what cousin Hilary's connection is to the events to say that she botched it.

Not sure second rate lawyer is fair - she has been twice listed in the top 100 most influential lawyers in the US. Not something a second rate thickie would be able to do. And if she is thick then it raises questions about the other names on the list!


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Sun 14 Oct 12 #190 
shortbreadforme27
Contributor

U can all cherry pick from what has been released in the media and at subsequent hearings - that is your fundamental right. However until all the facts are known and they never will in the public arena it is unfair to single out any department or individual to blame.

What you all should consider is how much good Mrs Clinton has done in her present role and I think you will be presently surprised.

Preventing terror attacks is nigh impossible whatever resources you have or in this case have not - when on the side of right you have to get it right 100 per cent all the time - when on the side of evil you just need to get it right once - think of that b4 u open your mouths and comment on what should have been done and what u think was not.


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Sun 14 Oct 12 #191 
Ajax
Contributor

I'm not commenting, I was asking a question. Not a rhetorical one. You can tell by the ? and ! usage.

F'rinstance

Me: How are you today?
Someone else: OK. I've still got my head stuck in a toaster.
Me: Dafuk?!

See the difference?


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Sun 14 Oct 12 #192 
southshoregirl

I don't care whose cousin she is. She had been a lackluster Secretary of State and there were at least 13 pleas for extra security at that Consulate knowing as we do how the Muslims look for anniversaries to repeat criminal acts of terrorism. I believe there had even been prior incidents


I want to know one thing myself, Ajax. What the hell were Hillary, perhaps an influential atty. but that means squat, and her cronies doing trying to change the governments in Egypt and Libya? I don't believe we had any business being there at all and we had a "working relationship" with both Mubarek and Quadaffi. Whose idea was it to stir the pot? Who decided to help the rebels in those two countries? Probably Hillary and Obama. We were told a bg bag of lies by both Hillary and Obama over the past months concerning the things which were happening and they were LIES! Sorry! When you stop telling the truth to the people of the country you represent it is all over. Hillary is scarcer than a hen's tooth and appears only when she must. They laid it all upon Susan Rice, the US ambassador to the UN to go out and appear on FIVE Sunday news shows to fill in the party line, to spell it out, to deny the truth and thereby getting Hillary off the hook. But she isn't really off the hook because the House Ways and Means Committee is going to be questoning her under oath and then we will see what really happened. It isn't good, Ajax. We had NO business meddling and we were, in fact, told that we would not. It's 3:10 AM. I am going to sleep. Either Hillary, Obama, or Susan Rice will fall on their sword for this one and I promise you that The Hill and Bill Clinton Show v. The Two Obamas will be in full swing. The couples despise each other.

The US should not be trying to topple existing governments. Didn't we learn out lesson in Iraq?


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Sun 14 Oct 12 #193 
kevg
The Grumpinator

I don't know enough about USA politics to comment properly but I can tell you that defence of an Embassy is the responsibility of the country in which the Embassy is housed. Blaming Clinton is looking in the wrong direction.


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Sun 14 Oct 12 #194 
southshoregirl

I disagree. The country which has the embassy is responsible for it's people especially when it is in a hostile environment. Time will tell about all of this but as Secretary of State Hillary is where the buck stops. I would say that is our embassies cannot be kept safe we should recall our people. Another US embassy worker was killed in Yemen. We are hated so I think we should get out.


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Mon 15 Oct 12 #195 
Seve
Editor

The dialogue about the Benghazi terrorist attack and the ineffectual description of these events by the current U.S. administration is a tempest in a teapot. Radical fundamentalist attacks across the world will occur, regardless of how many U.S. Marines are stationed at every embassy and satellite sites. Everyone knows that the Arab world is in turmoil now and anything can happen. Democracy has always been a messy business.

The U.S. neo-conservatives pushed for democracy across the Middle East, rationalizing an invasion of Iraq on a trumped-up weapons of mass destruction argument to establish a beach-head in the region. This misadventure cost the U.S. more than $1.3T, almost all borrowed from foreign governments including China. The Bush administration followed the invasion with a poorly executed nation building exercise. It took wise and persistent efforts by Obama and Hilary Clinton to restore some of the lost U.S. prestige around the world.

Now, the same U.S. radical right fringe wants to change the dialogue to bolster U.S. military might. The U.S. is spending more today than the next five world powers combined on military expenditures. The U.S. spends 60% of its available discretionary budget on its military. Romney is now advocating to plus up the U.S. military budget by more than $2T above its current level over the next 10 years. This plus up is not needed nor requested by the Pentagon. Anything to promote the U.S. radical right to show up to vote. Sort of like a drowning man grasping for anything to save himself.


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Mon 15 Oct 12 #196 
southshoregirl

Seve, you are right. The attacks by the radical muslims will continue. I advocate that we get the hell out of there. For whatever reason the Obama government felt it had to get involved in Libya and Egypt is beyond me, I say we should stay out of it. It's none of our business. They were both countries with heads of state who could be dealt with. Now we have radical dictators with whom we cannot deal and the situation in the area is horrible. Bush should have attacked only with a declaration of war, which he did not have. It was a misadventure, as we look back.

Now, I say my main problem is that I do disagree with you that American politicians who go to these countries are trying to restore some of our prestige in the area. They apologize for us instead. As far as the attacks on the consulate, the "tempest in a teapot" is just that these people lie all the time. They have to come clean with what happened. I just hate the lying all the time.

We should be worrying about our own security at home and let the chips fall where they may "over there". I really don't care. I doubt they will be doing any major attack on us except for terror attacks and , yes, I do believe they will continue for a very long time. That's my view of it, plain and simple. Bring all Americans who are worried about their safety home form embassies and consulates and then remain very vigilant at home to avoid attacks at home.

I just can't stress how much I disagree with your statement about the "wise and persisent efforts of Obama and Hillary Clinton to restore some of the lost US prestige around the world". I think they did a lot to hurt it. I think they were too apologetic about our country when we are always sending aid and being as helpful as we can. Now, bring all our troops home and let them do what they want. We never should have been in Libya or Egypt in the first place.


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Mon 15 Oct 12 #197 
Ajax
Contributor

He probably meant cleaning up after Dubya, who is a laughing stock the world over.


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Tue 16 Oct 12 #198 
jmaxg
Contributor

Well, we have all said our piece. I am glad to see that more than me think that the current congressional inquiry into the Libyan embassy incident is simply political theater. BUT, it is the Congress of the United States and even though the likely outcome will be "There was an attack on a US embassy by a possible attack cell of Al Qaeda and no matter what the security, it most likely would have not made a difference in the net result", that outcome will NOT be made public until after November 6th, 2012, election day. That's just the way it goes. Every country uses the same political tactic from time to time, so maybe it's just best that we all get used to it.

Congressman Darryl Issa (republican), the committee chairman has a job to do and he will do it.

It maybe irks some of us that the major deficiency here has been Libyan security, not US security even if it was "beefed up", such obvious points are now subject to the swirl of politics.

We'll just have to wait and see if this tactic has the desired republican party result.


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Tue 16 Oct 12 #199 
jmaxg
Contributor

Post#162 has been updated. Figures are changing folks. This is getting very close.

Have a look.


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Tue 16 Oct 12 #200 
jmaxg
Contributor

Just as a "heads up", back in the 2008 election, I composed a spreadsheet that accepted user entered wins and losses in all states and automatically recorded electoral votes for the respective candidates.

Easy enough to do if you know how.

Anyway, if you guys want, and I get permission from the site hierarchy, I can post in this forum a representation of that same spreadsheet with the idea being that if I can post it on election night, and you guys watch, All you do is keep "refreshing" the page as I post updates.

That way, you can see the "electoral vote" situation as it progresses. Remember, the President of the United States requires 270 electoral votes or above.

Tell me and I'll seek permission.

(PM JMK to see if my spreadsheets work)


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Tue 16 Oct 12 #201 
Proofreader
Member

Sounds like a plan! And no commercials! (:


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Thu 18 Oct 12 #202 
jmaxg
Contributor

Thanks Proofie. In 2008 when I did it, the night ended up dissolving in a flash like watching a really good movie.

I already have the template ready in Excel. A simple premise really.....

All states listed

Comment below based on "R" and "D" means "R" equals republican and "D" equals democrat

Electoral votes per state as per US Constitution rules

Columns allocated to candidates Romney and Obama configured - "If "D" appears in a designated column, then Obama column will reflect electoral votes for that state. If "R" appears in the same column, then Romney column will reflect electoral votes for that state."

Catalyst will be either an "R" or a "D" character placed in the "win" column relative to that state

"R" or "D" will be based on media output. I will be basing my election coverage on the United States "MSNBC" network. When they call a win for a state, I will place my "R" or "D" in the "win" column

The subsequent electoral votes recorded under either the Obama or Romney columns will automatically total

Overall electoral vote totals for both candidates will be shown as an automatic summary

First candidate to reach 270 electoral votes will be the next President of the United States.


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Thu 18 Oct 12 #203 
jmaxg
Contributor

The Presidential Debate of Tuesday, 16th of October 2012?

Savage! It was a "town hall" forum in which both candidates got questions from audience members. The debate format was such that both candidates could stand before the question askers. But ended up in both candidates circling each other like boxers in a ring.

Sum result? It appears that Governor Romney blew it. What I mean by that is that there were so many "sound bytes" of the negatively Romney kind, that substance in this debate will probably not matter.

Governor Romney is now on record as stating he has "women in a binder". I know it was in reference to the Governor talking about finding the best women for his cabinet, but.....

So does Hugh Hefner (Playboy magazine)and Bob Guccione (Penthouse magazine)......not to mention Larry Flynt (Hustler magazine).

BIG mistake.......huge!

And the Libyan question mistake was just plain unforgivable.

President Obama: "I called this a terrorist attack the day after in my speech in the Rose Garden"

Governor Romney: "Ok, I want this to be a matter of record. The President said that, yet he did not make a comment about it being a terrorist act until 14 days later...."

President Obama: "Check the transcript."

Moderator: "In fact, the President did say that on that day, in the Rose Garden."

Ouch! Governor, you goofed big time.

Many statements were made, much fighter positions were taken, but here is my take....

The President came out and said "My apologies people. I am back."

And Governor Romney seemed very pissed off about it.


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Thu 18 Oct 12 #204 
amalia
Member

Good summation John. That spreadsheet on election night sounds really appealing if you can provide it.
Recently I came across an NPR article on how plankton is related at a stretch to how the red and blue vote is dispersed in the South. You might have come across the article if not

www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2012/10/02/162163801/obama-s-secret-weapon-in-the-south-small-dead-but-still-kickin


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Thu 18 Oct 12 #205 
Ajax
Contributor

There's an IgNobel in that.


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Thu 18 Oct 12 #206 
jmaxg
Contributor

I've done it before, the spreadsheet, I can do it again.

I just gotta clear it with Doctor Factenstein first as it will be a major "html" post.

I wanna do that first as I have no wish to "break" this site.

As for that site? Interesting. I know that county profiles matter, but on the day and in here, all I can do is state by state.

(seen that already - interesting)


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Sat 20 Oct 12 #207 
southshoregirl

If you are so inclined, jmaxg, you can update post 162. The electoral count is now Obama 201 toss up 131 Romney 206.

I guess Romney wasn't quite slain in that town hall-style "debate" with Candy Crowley inserting her incorrect opinions to help Obama. I will never under how or why the Republicans don't insist upon choosing half of the moderators in the debates. BTW. The Al Smith Dinner showed both cancidates to be pretty funny.
10/19/12 10:32 PM EDT


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Sat 20 Oct 12 #208 
jmaxg
Contributor

Checked and you are quite right SSG. I'll get that fixed as soon as I can.

I told ya it was gonna be tight. I'll just have to figure out the new "swing" states and correct. Meaning I'll have to adjust my preliminary spreadsheet to fix up that list of swing states. Shouldn't take me long.

No comment on the Candy Crowley incident, except to say that she perceived Governor Romney to be blurting out a factual error and trying to make political mileage out of it. She then acted instinctively.

I personally think it would not have made any impact. The jury was in.......Romney-1, Obama-1. That's the national polls, not me.

I thought the jokes in the Al Smith dinner were great, and gracious, and not out of line. Romney was funnier than I thought with an interesting dead-pan delivery. The President loves these things and he always does them well. Any chance to flash his million dollar smile. :-)

Question to SSG specifically.......

I have stated that the network that will power my election night spreadsheet will be MSNBC. Do you have any problem with that seeing how we are at opposite ends of the political spectrum?

I have discounted CNN because of their 2000 stuff-up. Fox News is just not applicable because they are Fox News.

I chose MSNBC because of their affiliation with NBC, a usually news dependable network.

But, if you like, I could go with CBS. They still have the longest lasting news pedigree in the United States.

Your call.


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Sat 20 Oct 12 #209 
jmaxg
Contributor

Post#162 fixed.


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Sat 20 Oct 12 #210 
Ajax
Contributor

Then with the Australian vote, scientifically calculated via newspolls, it will be Obama by a landslide. :D


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Mon 22 Oct 12 #211 
southshoregirl

MSNBC is probably a bad choice, jmaxg. They are the gang who can't shoot straight. Chris Matthews may have a serious accident. lol I don't know who to believe anymore and I suppose we have a few more weeks to think it over. I think CBS would be better.


Gads, Ajax, how did you calculate that? You are amazing!


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Mon 22 Oct 12 #212 
jmaxg
Contributor

CBS it is then! I have no problem with that.


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Mon 22 Oct 12 #213 
Ajax
Contributor

From "the news". Fun.



“Paul Ryan shirtless” is currently Googled nine times more often than the Republican candidate for Vice-President’s famous budget plan.

Those wanting to see Ryan's abs - famously earned through the P90X home exercise regime - come mostly from blue Democratic states, rather than Republican ones, according to New York Times.

Each month 5000 people search Google for information on Mitt Romney’s choice of underwear and potentially his Mormon faith since many practising Mormons wear the specially-designed temple garments.

"Barack Hussein Obama" is a popular search term in red states while blue states search more often for "Willard Mitt Romney".

This isn’t the first time that Google searches have made news.  On the 2008 election day, one in every 100 searches for Obama also included either “KKK” – a reference to the Klu Klux Klan - or the word “n*****”.

“McCain life expectancy” also became a popular search term once the Republican candidate John McCain nominated Sarah Palin as his running mate.


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Mon 22 Oct 12 #214 
sally906
Contributor

"...“McCain life expectancy” also became a popular search term once the Republican candidate John McCain nominated Sarah Palin as his running mate..."

Love it - I didn't know that little snippet - lol!


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Mon 22 Oct 12 #215 
southshoregirl

McCain is a blithering idiot. I think he's already dead.


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Tue 23 Oct 12 #216 
jmaxg
Contributor

Searching "Willard" may also get you lots of stuff about rats.

*stifled chuckle


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Wed 24 Oct 12 #217 
soupy
Member

Now that was funny!!


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Wed 24 Oct 12 #218 
southshoregirl

I like that, too! I loved that movie, too.

Hey, soupy, only 2 more weeks and then the election is over and we will argue bout something else!


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Wed 24 Oct 12 #219 
southshoregirl

These people give their kids odd names, don't they?


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Wed 24 Oct 12 #220 
jmaxg
Contributor

The last debate (and I am glad it was the last debate...I am sick of debates) was weird.

Governor Romney seemed to experience what was termed as "flop sweat".

Weird because BOTH political parties allocated what the temperature was to be......65F.....no more, no less.

I found that interesting. When the most famous of debates in American Presidential history involved "sweat", it was not "flop sweat". Nixon lost against John Fitzgerald Kennedy, sure enough. But Richard Nixon had just come off a horrific bout of influenza and he had just lost 20 pounds and was still sweating. Very unfortunate timing.

But Governor Romney? Even with all the party stipulations of 65F and such, he still sweated. Not saying that is significant, I am just saying it is interesting.


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Sat 27 Oct 12 #221 
jmaxg
Contributor

Post#162 - Electoral College Status in accordance with RealClearPolitics.com - updated


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Sat 27 Oct 12 #222 
sally906
Contributor

Can someone please explain in simple Sally English and without bias what the meaning/significance of elephants and donkeys are. Seeing references to them often in political jokes and they are going over my head as I don't get the meaning.


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Sat 27 Oct 12 #223 
kevg
The Grumpinator

symbols of the two parties. elephants are republicans, donkeys are democrats.

both are dummies


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Sat 27 Oct 12 #224 
jmaxg
Contributor

I think she already knew that, you idiot.

Anyhoo sally.....from "infoplease.com"......

The Donkey - Presidential candidate Andrew Jackson was the first Democrat ever to be associated with the donkey symbol. His opponents during the election of 1828 tried to label him a "jackass" for his populist beliefs and slogan, "Let the people rule." Jackson was entertained by the notion and ended up using it to his advantage on his campaign posters.

But cartoonist Thomas Nast is credited with making the donkey the recognized symbol of the Democratic Party. It first appeared in a cartoon in Harper's Weekly in 1870, and was supposed to represent an anti-Civil War faction. But the public was immediately taken by it and by 1880 it had already become the unofficial symbol of the party.



The Elephant - Political cartoonist Thomas Nast was also responsible for the Republican Party elephant. In a cartoon that appeared in Harper's Weekly in 1874, Nast drew a donkey clothed in lion's skin, scaring away all the animals at the zoo. One of those animals, the elephant, was labeled "The Republican Vote." That's all it took for the elephant to become associated with the Republican Party.


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Sat 27 Oct 12 #225 
jmaxg
Contributor

Speaking of "jackasses", Donald Trump has weighed back into the Presidential Election by way of Fox News here in the US.

Surely knowing that no other network in the United States APART from Fox News was gonna carry his announcement live, he did it anyway.......poor bastard.

Scenario: Trump claimed that he had an announcement that would change the direction of the presidential campaign. In the announcement, carried only by Fox News, he stated he would give $5,000,000 to a nominated charity IF President Obama could produce by 5pm (EST) on 31 October 2012.....his university transcripts?????

Err.....wait, let me check that......no, that's what he said alrighty. WTF???

Ok, assuming that he thinks that President Obama's Harvard Law credentials are a fraud, may I suggest something?

Donald Trump, you complete idiot, if you wish to confirm whether or not Barack Obama was actually editor of the Harvard Law Review, all you have to do is go to a lawyer and ask to see a copy of their Harvard Law Review for that point in time! The chances are you will see his name listed as "Editor"! As the Harvard Law Review is a required document in most professional law societies here in the US, I would think there should be no lack of supporting documentation in this regard.

Wait! I get it! The Harvard Law Faculty were NOT aware that Barack Obama was not an actual student! That's it! He rose to that title completely undocumented! Now, I'm not sure if I am impressed because Barack Obama did it, or because he did it by, according to Trump's suspicions, talking his way into it! Wow! The actual Harvard Law Review? Wow again!

The saddest thing about this is that the whole world can see that Trump is a complete whacker by doing nothing at all up to and including 5pm on 31 October 2012.

We have a word for people like this in Australia........it starts with "F", has three following letters and ends with "w-i-t".

Donald? Congratulations! You just managed to blow your own reputation to smithereens.

You go bye, bye now.


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Sat 27 Oct 12 #226 
sally906
Contributor

Thanks J explained very well thank you :)


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Sat 27 Oct 12 #227 
southshoregirl

I think Mitt will win, sweat or no sweat. The Benghazi situation is just too big and nasty for Obama to slip away from. The entire attack was caught and viewed on security tapes. I don't see how BO can wriggle out. He has been acting too bizarrely and too juvenile. I think he knows his days are numbered. I am just guessing. One thing is certain: Obama knew everything about the Benghazi attack and didn't act to save the lives of the people in the Consulate.


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Wed 31 Oct 12 #228 
jmaxg
Contributor

Not sure what is meant by that. Surely not that the President had forward knowledge of the Benghazi attack based on intelligence and he chose to simply ignore the advice. Because that simply doesn't make sense for any president.

The conversation goes something like this:

Republican Committee: Ahhh, but you said the attack was in response to some stupid, amateur, bigoted video. BUT, it was actually an actual attack by Al Qaeda!

The President: Your point being?

Republican Committee: Err....I had a point.....oh! The embassy was requesting additional security because they knew an attack was imminent. And you ignored them!!

The President: No, they didn't.

Republican Committee: Yes, they did!!

The President: Look, we could do this forever. Do you have anything that looks like an official request from the Libyan Embassy to either the State Department or the White House that we haven't already got?

Republican Committee: Yes!!!

The President: Really??

Republican Committee: Well, no. BUT, we have lots of embassy employees saying that they knew this was coming.

The President: How many do you have that can point to OFFICIAL American government communication BEFORE the fact??

Republican Committee: None.

The President: None?

Republican Committee: Yup.....zip......not one.....ya got us there.

The President: So why are you even doing this?

Republican Committee: Because it's the election, dopey. The whole point of this is to raise questions BEFORE the election and then to deliver some quiet report afterwards that nobody could have realistically seen the Benghazi attack coming.

The President: Ahh.

Republican Committee: You know how it goes. What? Do I have to draw you a map?


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #229 
jmaxg
Contributor

Speaking of maps, well not maps but overall representation, I have prepared the proposed 2012 Presidential Electoral Vote Count ready for this coming Tuesday and cleared it through the site to post.

The following is what you will see on the night....


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #230 
jmaxg
Contributor

See Post#247 below.

Thank you.


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #231 
jmaxg
Contributor

You will note blank cells under the "DEM" and "GOP" columns.

Throughout the night, as states are called one way or the other, a capital "W" will be placed alongside that state and under the appropriate column in those cells.......either a Democratic (DEM) "W" or a Republican (GOP) "W".

That will cause the candidate vote counts at the bottom of the post to automatically increment according to the electoral votes for that state.

First one to make it to 270 wins!


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #232 
kevg
The Grumpinator

my money is on Romney but it's gonna be close


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #233 
jmaxg
Contributor

I agree that it's gonna be close. I think it might go the other way though.

Polls are funny things and at the moment, they are all over the place. But on average, in the swing states, they are favouring the incumbent.

Then you have his approval rating after his handling of Superstorm Sandy.....interesting.......73% approval.

Then there is the internal memo (unintentionally exposed) within the Florida Republican election committee.......the Democrats are "cleaning our clocks".

Again, you are dead right that it's close. But it was close in 2004 too between Bush and Kerry. Bush got returned with a bigger margin.


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #234 
Proofreader
Member

Good work, jmax!! Thanks for the efforts!! 😊, It will be nice to see the Obama states add up to a victory...which they will. I hope it is decisive w/o complications like hanging chads.


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #235 
jmaxg
Contributor

Thanks Proofie. Actually, it's not all that hard as I have been working spreadsheets and writing formulae for the better part of 20 years.

In this case, I confess, my formula inside the candidate's count cells is not all that elegant. But that's Excel for ya! Elegance or Bull in a China Shop, it will do it either way.

Not the Mac approach, but it will do.


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #236 
jmaxg
Contributor

Most of the data you see above, I stole from Wikipedia.

You think I am gonna sit there and type in fifty states and the District of Columbia and their electoral vote allocation??

Screw that! I'll just copy and move things around.


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #237 
jmaxg
Contributor

Good to see you guys getting excited about this and so am I.

I was advised to tell you guys to just go and do the map thing available everywhere else.

To tell you the truth? I don't like "the map thing". It doesn't say anything in particular to me. I would rather see amounts build up state by state.

Apologies to CNN, Fox, ABC, CBS, MSNBC, NBC and PBS. You wanna do your map thing? Fine!

But it appears we prefer to do things a tad simpler.


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #238 
Ajax
Contributor

Excited? Or scared?


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #239 
soupy
Member

I know I opted out of this forum a couple monthes ago cause I just don't like to argue politics or religion discussing is one thing but I will not argue.One of these days when I know u better I will explain why! Anyway I am a registered voter and I will vote on Tuesday or maybe tomorrow if I wake up in time I can early vote at the courthouse. just wanted to explain that.
By the way Jmax the map looks great I like it no matter where you stole it from.


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #240 
amalia
Member

Thanks Jmaxg/John looks good.
It is the one election of all globally that for me really matters!


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #241 
sally906
Contributor

I'm not in the slightest bit excited. I just want it to be OVER! It goes on forever. And voting is not even compulsorary. So some tiny portion of the population is going to decide who runs the country - how is that democratic?

It is good to be passionate about politics of your country, don't get me wrong - but this has been going on for years and it will start all over again in a few months time :(

I do like how you guys explain things to me when I don't understand though - it get complicated at times :)


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Sat 3 Nov 12 #242 
shortbreadforme27
Contributor

Money making on the back of those who cannot afford it. Get real America and regain the respect of the world.


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Mon 5 Nov 12 #243 
jmaxg
Contributor

Updating the Electoral College Vote Count

Just as a heads up, after polls close on Tuesday, 6 November 2012, I will be expecting election results relative to states to start coming through between 12:00am GMT (7:00pm Mich. Time) and 1:00am GMT (8:00pm Mich. Time).

Networks will probably start calling wins in states not long after 1:00am GMT (based on their own complicated forecasting formulas). So you should expect to see "W"s appearing in Post#247 within minutes after that point and therefore the first "Cumulative Vote Counts per Presidential Candidate" should be immediately obvious in the blue section at the bottom.

US West Coast results should start coming in by 3:00am GMT (10:00pm Mich. Time).


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Tue 6 Nov 12 #244 
jmaxg
Contributor

Also, a couple of points....very small ones.....

The post I am providing is an "Electoral College Vote Count" based on election results, not a "map".

As I pointed out above, I don't like the "map" style of electoral representation for counts or on an actual election day. I would rather just see an alphabetical list of states, the electoral votes allocated to that state, who won that state (thus inferring the electoral votes allocated to that candidate), and the overall total of electoral votes per candidate. That keeps it simple to me.

Soupy.....I didn't steal anything. I simply went to the Wikipedia entry on the United States Electoral College - See "2.7 - Current Electoral Vote Distribution" and copied the state list and electoral vote allocations into my Excel file and then made up the rest. Why do that? Because I couldn't be bothered typing in the names of 50 states and a district, that's why! LOL!

So the representation of the count you see hasn't been "stolen" from anyone. It's all my design and based on common sense and yes, laziness due to my aversion to typing in 50 states and a district. So sue me.

:-)

Anyway, last thing I wanted to mention is that I will be moving Post#230 (now Post#247) down below to save me scrolling to catch up on comments/responses as I go. Not a laziness thing, just a mouse/not wanting my scroll wheel to implode thing.

Rest assured, at any time there will be only ONE electoral college vote count. After moving, I will delete the previous and leave a note about where to find the next one.


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Tue 6 Nov 12 #245 
kevg
The Grumpinator

I'm so excited I can't sh*t


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Tue 6 Nov 12 #246 
jmaxg
Contributor

But........if ya don't sh*t, ya die!

That's what my PTI's used to tell me.....you don't eat, you don't sh*t. If ya don't sh*t, ya die!

I took that advice to heart.

:-)


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Tue 6 Nov 12 #247 
jmaxg
Contributor

See Post#257 below.


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Tue 6 Nov 12 #248 
southshoregirl

OK, jmaxg. I still put my money on Romney and CBS has revealed that they and Obama had watched the entire Benghazi terror attack unfold. CBS, not Fox or some other paper or station. Tonight will be the only true test. I think it will be tight but my money is on Mitt.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #249 
jmaxg
Contributor

Some projected results are in......see above.

Very early in the process though.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #250 
jmaxg
Contributor

Table updated.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #251 
jmaxg
Contributor

Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, South Carolina, Vermont and West Virginia have their projected winners.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #252 
jmaxg
Contributor

And now a whole bunch of other projections.

Man! This is gettin' busy!

:-)


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #253 
jmaxg
Contributor

Explanatory Note:

Some of the more eagle-eyed amongst you may have noticed my count is out by one (1) electoral vote per candidate.

After some confusion, I have deduced that my Wikipedia source is, in fact, not correct by at least two states and that one has been taken by President Obama and one has been taken by Governor Romney.

At this stage, I don't plan on tracking down the erroneous states/electoral vote amounts. It won't make any difference either way.

Yet.

;-)


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #254 
kevg
The Grumpinator

looking good so far young man, you are working well


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #255 
jmaxg
Contributor

Thank you sir.

I appreciate it.

By the way, New Hampshire just got called for Obama.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #256 
jmaxg
Contributor

More updates.....keep refreshing.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #257 
jmaxg
Contributor

Presidential Election - 2012 - Electoral College Vote Count
Date: Tuesday, 6 November 2012
VC** Electoral vote change since the last election due to US Census of 2010 (if any)
                  Projected Winner                   Projected Winner
State Vote Alloc VC** DEM   GOP State Vote Alloc VC** DEM   GOP
                       
Alabama  9       W Nebraska  5 -1     W
Alaska  3       W Nevada  6 1 W    
Arizona  11 1     W New Hampshire  4   W    
Arkansas  6       W New Jersey  14 -1 W    
California  55   W     New Mexico  5   W    
Colorado  9   W     New York  29 -2 W    
Connecticut  7   W     North Carolina  15       W
Delaware  3   W     North Dakota  3       W
Florida  29 2 W     Ohio  18 -2 W    
Georgia  16 1     W Oklahoma  7       W
Hawaii  4   W     Oregon  7   W    
Idaho  4       W Pennsylvania  20 -1 W    
Illinois  20 -1 W     Rhode Island  4   W    
Indiana  11       W South Carolina  9 1     W
Iowa  6 -1 W     South Dakota  3       W
Kansas  6       W Tennessee  11       W
Kentucky  8       W Texas  38 4     W
Louisiana  8 -1     W Utah  6 1     W
Maine  4   W     Vermont  3   W    
Maryland  10   W     Virginia  13   W    
Massachusetts  11 -1 W     Washington  12 1 W    
Michigan  16 -1 W     West Virginia  5       W
Minnesota  10   W     Wisconsin  10   W    
Mississippi  6       W Wyoming  3       W
Missouri  10 -1     W Washington, D.C. 3   W    
Montana  3       W            
Total electoral votes 538
                             
      Cumulative Vote Counts per Presidential Candidate        
                             
     (270 Votes Required to Become President of the United States)      
                             
       President Obama Vote Count:   332            Governor Romney Vote Count:   206  
                             



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Wed 7 Nov 12 #258 
jmaxg
Contributor

Missouri is awarded to Governor Romney.

Ohio, North Carolina and Florida too close to call.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #259 
jmaxg
Contributor

It's Been Called

The election has been called. President Barack Obama has been given a second term.

Why call it given the above?

Ohio (18 votes) just fell to Obama and Florida (29 votes) is going that way.

Combine that with the Californian electoral college 55 votes, he has made more than 270.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #260 
sally906
Contributor

With 275 votes in the bag -Obama has reached the magical 270 so has been re-elected!!!

Whoo Hoo - didn't like the other one.

Mind you not being an American it doesn't really matter what I think :)


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #261 
sally906
Contributor

By the way - is it true that it is the college vote that counts in the sense that say all the people of New Hampshire voted for Romney but the college didn't want him they could say no stuff you people we're voting for Obama.

Is that truth or myth?

jmax - great job today with your results - thank you


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #262 
jmaxg
Contributor

Yes sally, it is true.

But it doesn't normally happen. It's a long story but it's up to the states. If they allowed their electoral college delegates to cast a vote in opposition to the popular vote, then that state would stand out apart from the Union.

It has happened but none in recent elections.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #263 
jmaxg
Contributor

The Republicans are disputing Ohio.

But I predict a concession speech by the Romney camp rather soon.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #264 
jmaxg
Contributor

Good heavens! Even without Florida, which is skewing to Obama, this election is a blowout!


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #265 
soupy
Member

WELL Florida is having problems again according to CNN go figure remember Bush in 2000 I think it was .
Anyhoo they have as u said declared Obama as winner.
JMAXG you did a crack-up job tonight! Thats redneck for great I am impressed and proud of you. Later on I will tell u guys who really won according to Soupy!


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #266 
jmaxg
Contributor

Thanks soupy.

We shall await your "who really won" figures.

The Romney campaign is still not willing to concede at this stage. Interesting.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #267 
soupy
Member

OK THIS IT IT SO FAR:
President JMAXG
Vice President:KEVG
Speaker of the House:Doctor Factenstein (:?
SEcretary of the Navy:SouthShoreGirl
Secretary of State:Jackson
Health,education And Welfare:AJAX
OK All the votes are not in yet Florida is still screwed up and so am I but will tell u the finals as I get them. How do u like them so far? or as the song goesHow Do You Like Me Now?


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #268 
Ajax
Contributor

Sally, it does matter to us. We are allies, so it matters a great deal. We are also peopling the same planet, so environmental issues affect us all.

I feel as if my anxiety has fallen away.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #269 
jmaxg
Contributor

Soupy? You crack us up!

And apparently given my brother kevg a reason for another forum.

If we haven't made it obvious to you as yet, let us make it obvious now.

You, soupy, are part of our family.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #270 
Ajax
Contributor

I have an awesome portfolio and my How to Emulate Lee Kwan Yew book. Let's go.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #271 
soupy
Member

I think I am going to cry! But I kinda thought that I was part of the family cause u guys have worked so hard to help me out! Will have more results later,right now I have to admit a patient. WORK SUCKS!
Thank you Jmax


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #272 
jmaxg
Contributor

Advice has been received. Mitt Romney has phoned President Barack Obama and congratulated him on his victory.

The concession has been made. Now, we await the speech.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #273 
jmaxg
Contributor

The concession speech has been made by Governor Romney.

It's official. Barack Hussein Obama is now the 44th president of the United States.

Notwithstanding any further comments, I'd like to take this point in time to thank all of you.

I was advised not to do this for obvious reasons.

But I chose to do it anyway because I felt you wanted my take on it. That's all.

In any case, what I did, I did for you guys as corny as that sounds.

I really, really appreciate all your comments of support. I thank you.

You are the reason I hang around.

:-)


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #274 
soupy
Member

SO we can call u Sloopy then.
Thats a really old song from the 60's u are probabaly too young to remember it. Sung by The McCoys "Hang On Sloopy"


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #275 
Ajax
Contributor

Don't go changing. Any of you.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #276 
jmaxg
Contributor

I hope we don't either Ajax.

Ok...a couple of criticisms......on me.....

1. My electoral college vote allocations were wrong. That was an easily avoidable error and I feel a little bad about it. Let this be a lesson to all that retrieve data off of the internet......VERIFY!!! Especially if your source is Wikipedia. During the day, I will be taking steps to correct the above table. As it happens, the table is designed to allow that to happen and the electoral vote totals will automatically adjust.

2. The next time I do this, either have a wireless laptop or employ an assistant. Some of the later evening calls closing in on 270 were too quick for me to handle as I was running back and forth between the desktop PC and the TV. Next time, it will be on a wireless laptop........either that or I will have an intern.

Personal thoughts.....

I believe it's now time for the Republican party to reassess itself. Their fiscal responsibility and leaner government origins should be allowed to re-emerg.

The neo-conservative intentional pandering to the ultra-religious demographic and the subsequent interference in issues concerning women and doctors should be tossed aside. The video images of United States Senate candidates Todd Akin and Richard Mourdock inferring that violence against women is somehow acceptable (or "God's will") should be burned into the conservative brain forever. Roe vs Wade was decided by the Supreme Court 35 years ago due to the scope of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States (the right to privacy) so get over it. Besides, this is the 21st century and we live in an era that must reconcile itself with feminism......a righteous, proper and morally correct concept that has cemented itself into the modern age.

Back in the early 1960s, over 40 years ago, the arch-conservative and presidential hopeful Barry Goldwater, when faced with the idea of government dictating how doctors should interact with his wife and daughters, said the following:

"Over my dead body!"

As a husband, a father of daughters and a grandfather of granddaughters, I say well said Mr. Goldwater. A cranky old bastard you may have been. But it doesn't mean you were wrong.

I think it's also time for conservatives to draw a line in the sand and stop the dishonest and/or disingenuous political tactics that they seem to delight in applying time after time. The tactic of underestimating the intelligence of the electorate should be buried now and forever. Yes, I know that means the ratings of Fox News will plummet, but I never said there will not be casualties.

Stop the casting of doubt over your fellow Americans using hidden racial slurs and other ridiculous innuendo. Meet your political opponent face to face based on the issues at large and stop acting like a coward. It should be obvious now....Donald Trump is irrelevant. Thus endeth the lesson.

Ok.....that should be enough. Ohio is still being contested (although the count will not change) and Florida is still too close to call. But otherwise, the American people have spoken and their intolerance of intolerance was, I feel, made very plain.

This is still not the perfect country. But I think they made a step last night in their ambition to be so.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #277 
kevg
The Grumpinator

Vice President ?? Hmmm you haven't been here long have you young lady !!


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #278 
jmaxg
Contributor

Shut up you! And get back to your office or I'll call the secret service on yer ass!

Chief of Staff? Throw me a Victoria Bitter!

*the prez leans back, puts his feet on the Resolute Desk, picks up the phone and calls the Pentagon...

Do, do, dee, do, do, dee, do, dee, do, dee, do, doo...

(Hail to the chief)

I hope the Joint Chiefs have some predators left......I'm feeling lucky.

:-D


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #279 
kevg
The Grumpinator

I sense a Palace coup in the making


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #280 
kevg
The Grumpinator

I also think you will find that it is MY secret service and your ass is toast !!


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #281 
jmaxg
Contributor

Yeah.....whatever VP.......next time ya go up in Marine Two, I'd check the spark plug connections before ya take off. Just a hint.

;-)

Okie....I have fixed the electoral vote count table (post#257 above) and plugged in the missing states that had not reported until after I went beddie-bye.

I also found out the reason there was a one vote disparity during part of last night....

Maine and Nebraska are what they call "Congressional District Method" states relative to electoral college vote declarations. That means that a part of each state can declare their electoral college votes based on voting returns from their various congressional districts as opposed to all other states which declare their total electoral vote intention as soon as the popular vote is projected beyond 50%.

TV networks took this into account for part of the night and, obviously, my table did not. Doesn't matter now as both Maine and Nebraska have now declared their total electoral vote allocation. Maine's 4 votes are going to President Obama and Nebraska's 5 votes are going to Governor Romney.

Oh well, ya live and learn.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #282 
jmaxg
Contributor

Still waiting on Florida but the current count has the President in front by a small margin.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #283 
jackson
Contributor

does this mean i have to wear pantsuits Soupy? Glad to see you folks from other
countries interested in our somewhat confusing elections.

not as long ago as you think jman.

Bush vs Gore


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #284 
southshoregirl

I am astounded at the ignorance of the voting public. I don't much care what foreigners care. We are ruined. I am totally disappointed and will not be ammendable to any discussion of the topic of Obama ever. If he dies I may have a remark or two. The world economy will be ruined in short order. Nice going, people.


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Wed 7 Nov 12 #285 
sally906
Contributor

SSG - maybe the voting public ISN'T ignorant.


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #286 
soupy
Member

WELL its better than being "ILLEGETIMATLEY" raped!
I am part of the voting public and I'm not ignorant a little slow sometimes but not ignorant.


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #287 
soupy
Member

By the way Jmaxg and Kev you guys do realize don't u that if both of u are assasinated that Doc F will become president by order of succession.
and Jackson I think u would look good in a pants suit and don't forget to fix ur hair!


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #288 
Ajax
Contributor

Another candidate may well have won. Perhaps Obama won merely on the basis of not being Romney.


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #289 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Hey soupy, what do you mean "if"?


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #290 
soupy
Member

Like I said in a PM to you I guess we are going to have a couple of state funerals in DC


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #291 
jmaxg
Contributor

He won because a few years ago, David Axelrod (President Obama's chief political advisor) sent out a team to study the demographic breakdown in battleground states so they knew where to set up their operation centres and begin what they refer to as their "ground game" (door knocking, pounding the pavement, etc.).

Their starting reference point was the results of the US Census.

Their targets were blacks, hispanics, 18 to 35s (of any colour), women and the working class.

The rationale is that the voting impact of the middle class (or higher) white male is waning in this country and the statistics seem to back that up.....especially in swing states. They predict that in 2016, Texas (yipes!) may even be in play politically speaking. I know....dogs and cats living together, right? Still, that's what the stats point to.

On another note, I'd like to thank Donald Trump for joining us (post#284). Hey Donald, why did you delete your election night tweets?? Not incendiary enough?

One more thing......you do realise it's against the law to even infer violence against the President, right?

Dunno if that applies to the VP. But as far as I am concerned, he is Daffy and it's duck season so go for it!

;-)


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #292 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Getting rid of the VP wouldn't do me any good. You'd just appoint another. You've got to both go down at the same time if the 25th is going to hand power to me...

(And obviously, I should point out that I'm talking merely about Vice President kevg and Presidnet jmaxg. There's no law against pretend threats against pretend presidents).


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #293 
jmaxg
Contributor

Well, there is a pretend law......at least I am pretending there is.

:-)


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #294 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

And that's just fine. I just wanted to make it clear for when the FBI's web crawler bots pick up this forum. :)


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #295 
soupy
Member

OMG I have created monsters with my pretend election help me out here pretend secretary of state!


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #296 
southshoregirl

Am I being blocked from commenting on here?


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #297 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

That question really answers itself, doesn't it?


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #298 
southshoregirl

Sally, I am not much interested in how this ignorant charlatan got elected again but I will tell you this: The man on the street is IGNORANT. That is how I know. I hear them answer, or try to answer, the most basic politic and historical questions and they don't know. It is a terrible thing to see.

Ajax, of course, they may just not like Romney. I am not in love with him. But I do prefer him a bit over O.

David Axelrod is a union thug and he is not anything more. We don't even know if the election is free of voter fraud. I am not saying there was fraud, just that until the final papers are signed that O is the winner things can change.

Meanwhile, our friends can look forward to a different country , less of a country, a country with less, a country you cannot count on. It's sad but the world seems to like it. I don't think this will last long. I am optimistic that change will come and come soon. All this is all my opinion and I am not afraid to say it..

O HAD HIS 4 YEARS AND RAN THE COUNTRY INTO THE GROUND. HOW THE DEVIL IS HE GOING TO GET IT OUT!???


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #299 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

I thought you weren't amenable to comment...?

Then again, I thought you were going to move to Costa Rica if he got in the last time.


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #300 
southshoregirl

He just got in. Give me a bit of time. I am exploring posibilities of a new dwelling as I type. I have an elderly husband to worry about and he doesn't want to go anywhere. I don't know what to do now. I will do something. I have to give it a bit of thought. I will be moving since the house was flooded. It has just pushed me over the edge now. I will keep you posted. I haven't changed my mind about getting out of the US at all.


You know I can't keep quiet about thing, Stu. I am too opinionated!


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Thu 8 Nov 12 #301 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Oh, sure, I know, I know. Trust me, I'm under no illusions about that!

You still keep claiming that you're not going to comment on things though so the question really is whether YOU know you can't keep quiet. ;)


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Fri 9 Nov 12 #302 
Seve
Editor

Democracy at its best ... real messy.

The demographics of the U.S. are changing at a remarkable and measurable pace. We get to see this occur every four years in the presidential race. The dominant white / European origin fraction of our constituency just declined below 50%, although we still constitute 72% of the voting electorate today. Eight years ago, white voters were over 86% of the overall vote.

As the U.S. becomes more cosmopolitan, it is painfull that some folks can't accomodate themselves to this change. In fact they have actually become less tolerant of others with different views and different policies. This messy business will persist for a lot longer (unfortunately).


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Fri 9 Nov 12 #303 
soupy
Member

well actually this country was in a mess when O took over 4yrs ago and it takes longer than 4 yrs to dig out of it. Bill Clinton found that out. U know his famous state ment "IT'S THE ECONOMY,STUPID" Ronald Reagan sure found it out after following Jimmy Carter and that big Iranian mess with the hostages etc. I just don't think Romney would have done much better especially with that idiot of a running mate


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Fri 9 Nov 12 #304 
jmaxg
Contributor

But given other demographics, not just black and latino, soupy also hit the nail on the head before in her post#286. Women, especially younger, single and tertiary educated women played a part in this.

Referred to on the MSNBC "Rachel Maddow Show" as the "Creepy Rape and Abortion Comments Caucus", it consisted of the following:

Richard Mourdock (R) - seeking senate election
Rep. Joe Walsh (R) - seeking congressional rep. reelection
John Koster (R) - seeking congressional rep. election
Rep. Todd Akin (R) - seeking senate election
Rep. Roscoe Bartlett (R) - seeking congressional rep. reelection
Rep. Rick Berg (R) - seeking senate election
John MacGovern (R) - seeking congressional rep. election
Rep. Paul Ryan (R) - seeking vice presidential election
Tom Smith (R) - seeking senate election

Of those candidates, all of them at some time or another pressed to further explain their position on abortion (against - even in the case of pregnancy due to rape), NONE (zero, zip, nada, etc) were successful in their bids for election and/or reelection. With the exception of Rep. Paul Ryan (R) who now resumes his role as a congressional representative, the rest are out of a job or have lost their bid to have a job.

Given the demographic targeting now being accepted as the major theory for the President's success and the democratic parties' slightly increased representation, one cannot help but assume that democratic strategists were doing multiple "spit takes" as the republican parties' platform on women's health issues was put under the microscope repeatedly.


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Fri 9 Nov 12 #305 
sally906
Contributor

I wonder what the outcome would be if everyone voted - if it was compulsorary. Isn't it some small percentage of the population that votes - I heard 50-60%

I have a friend who didn't go to vote because he lives in a 'red' state and didn't think his one blue vote would make a difference. What if all the blue voters thought that way - red wins - but what if there are actually more blue voters than red? What if they had to vote because it was compulsorary? And the same in the 'blue' states - how different - and democratic - would that be?

Same applies in the UK - my granddad use to tell me if on voting day it was raining the conservative voters stayed at home and Labor got up - if it was sunny the Labor voters went out to play and the conservatives got in! Not sure if I remembered that 100% but it was along those lines - only in the sense that the parties could be the other way - Labor when sunny and conservative when wet.

I winge and whine about HAVING to vote - but I think it is far more democratic as everyone gets a say - than just a small percentage deciding my future while I sit at home.


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Fri 9 Nov 12 #306 
jackson
Contributor

they say it's roughly half the population for the main election. in less important elections considerably less. state & local turnouts i'm guessin vary a lot.


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Sat 10 Nov 12 #307 
Lucy
Contributor

My whole family has voted by absentee ballot for years. We didn't like our polling place because there was very littleparking and had to make a left turn on a busy highway. All of that has been fixed,polling place changed,but we still do it. It is so easy and one can sit with the information book and leisurely make up one's mind. The only thing we don't like is listening to the ads for 2 weeks after we have voted.


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Sat 10 Nov 12 #308 
southshoregirl

I don't know anything about any of those people but Rep. Paul Ryan is no idiot. He is really a brilliant man who had a great grasp of economics and I hope he takes Boehners place as Speaker of the House. By the way....why has there been NO BUDGET since OBAMA has been elected? That is plain wrong.

Sally, from what I heard the evangelical Christians didn't vote for Romney for a Mormon. I just read it on FaceBook so I don't know it it's tue. I think it is disgraceful that Americans don't vote. It is a privilege they of which they may soon wish they had taken advantage.


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Sat 10 Nov 12 #309 
kevg
The Grumpinator

"NO BUDGET since OBAMA has been elected"

Barb, please, just stop for a minute and look at what you posted. Give them time to sort you out in your little hell-hole first. I know that is their priority then they can start looking at what they can get. From what I've seen USA is turning into an African style democracy. If you want me to expand on that I'm sure I can find time.


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Sat 10 Nov 12 #310 
jmaxg
Contributor

Well, whatever THAT meant....

But the "evangelicals not voting for Romney because he's a cultist Mormon" reason doesn't cut it either statistically.

The way this election panned out was this.....Obama's team went out early to characterise Romney as a heartless member of Bain Capital......a company created by Romney, with his dad's money, whose job it was to identify weak companies and either beef them up and make 'em work, or carve them up and sell them off, all to maximise shareholder return.

Obama's team did so because they picked him as the candidate to beat even before the republican primaries.

Then the republican primaries took over and the republican primary opponents did a lot of Obama's team's work for them. Texas governor Rick Perry came up with "vulture capitalist" and it stuck. And, of course, Newt Gingrich was Newt Gingrich. It turned out to be the perfect storm and it was correctly anticipated that only Romney would come out of it.

After that, it was just a matter of keeping the mud stuck and seeing if the party he belonged to would help out. They did.

"I don't know anything about any of those people but Rep. Paul Ryan is no idiot."

Ok, let's look at those you don't know about that were running for office as I explained above.....

Richard Mourdock (R) -

"Even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

Rep. Joe Walsh (R) -

"There's no such exception as life of the mother. As far as health of the mother, same thing."

John Koster (R) -

"On the rape thing, it's like; how does putting more violence onto a women's body and taking the life of an innocent child, that's a consequence of this crime, how does that make it better? You know what I mean?"

Questioner: "But she has to live with that consequence of that crime. Know what I mean?"

"Yeah, I know, I know. Crime has consequences."

Rep. Todd Akin (R) -

"If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try and shut that whole thing down."

Rep. Roscoe Bartlett (R) -

"What is the percentage for abortions for rape. It is tiny. It is a tiny, tiny percentage."

Audience member: "20,000 pregnancies every year from rape."

"Yeah, and how many abortions? In the millions?"

Audience member: "That's 20,000 rapes! That's 20,000 people that were violated!"

"Yeah, I know, I know..."

Rep. Rick Berg (R) -

Media interviewer: "Why would you force a woman who's been raped to have that baby?"

"You know, like I say Jim, my position is pro-life and, you know, I care about the unborn and, you know, I feel that where we should be in our policy."

Media interviewer: "What would the appropriate sentence be? You know, do we fine her, do we put her in jail? Do you have any thoughts on that at all?"

"Those are things that need to be worked out through the legislative process."

John MacGovern (R) -

Independent Senator Bernie Sanders (on the radio): "Do you believe that a woman should be forced by the government to give birth to a rapist's baby against her will?"

"Uh, I've always in my career and to this day been loyal to the principal of life. I'm pro-life. I'm profoundly pro-life. I'm pro-life to my core."

(no further comment)

Tom Smith (R) -

Off screen questioner: "How would you tell a daughter, or a granddaughter who God forbid, would be the victim of a rape, to keep the child against her own will?"

"I lived something similar to that with my own family. She chose life and I commend her for that. She knew my views but, uhh, fortunately for me I didn't have to....she chose the way I taught. Now, don't get me wrong, it wasn't rape."

Off screen questioner: "Similar how?"

"Uh, having a baby out of wedlock."

Off screen questioner: "That's similar to rape?"

"No, no, no, but....well, put yourself in a father's position, yes. I mean it is similar."

Rep. Paul Ryan (R) -

Interviewer: "Should it be legal for a woman to get an abortion if she's...."

(cut off)

"Yeah, so I am very proud of my pro-life record and, umm, I've always adopted the idea, the position that the method of conception doesn't change the definition of life."

Now, if it has to be known, the United States nationwide exit polling on abortion (November 6th, 2012) is that 59% think it should be legal, 36% think it should be illegal.

But even apart from that, if I was a voter, which I could be no matter how much that may horrify SSG, based on the above, I might think the following....

I may be a voter, but I am also a husband to a wife, a father to a daughter, a grandfather to a granddaughter, a brother to a sister, a nephew to an aunty, an uncle to a niece, and a friend to a female.

Not to mention a son of a mother.

There is simply no way, not in the annals of history, even if faced with perdition or purgatory of even a bloody big gun to my head, that I can justify myself voting for some ignorant, fact deprived, sexist tool that will not only infer, but will PROMISE that he will sit in the private consultation that happens between a woman and her doctor.

How DARE these old male farts have any opinion at all!!!!

I think that a LOT of people felt like me and they voted accordingly.

It's called something very simple........being on the right side.


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Sat 10 Nov 12 #311 
Ajax
Contributor

Thank goodness we don't have that shit in Australia. Or when we do, most people laugh it off. We don't have a large section of society who is really into it. Just a few people. Most of us are going to hell, but a 21st Century hell so it might be a place with no wifi.


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Sat 10 Nov 12 #312 
jmaxg
Contributor

I agree....back then (before June 2002), abortion wasn't spoken of in Australia as well as many other western countries. We knew it happened, we just didn't talk about it.

But here? Thanks to the wowsers, the evangelics and the murderous pro-lifers, I have logically come to my conclusion regarding abortion....

It's simply none of my bloody business. Why? Because I am NOT a woman and NOT a doctor and it's just that simple. I just am incapable of giving birth. Therefore, I should be excluded from ANY sort of decision making process over it. Just like ANY other male except for medical practitioners.

And don't raise a bible either because it never talked about abortion.......nor did it talk about the legal rights of a blastocyst.


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Sat 10 Nov 12 #313 
jmaxg
Contributor

I see the Huffington Post is calling the Florida election result as final.

Yeah, whatever, that's close enough....

FINAL ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTE COUNT

President Barack Obama - 332 votes
Governor Mitt Romney - 206 votes

If Huffington Post changes their mind, that's cool......I'll just adjust as well.


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Sat 10 Nov 12 #314 
jmaxg
Contributor

Ok, now everybody else has called it in Florida as well.....as at 1.00pm (US EST), Saturday, 10 November 2012.

All say the same.....the President has won in Florida.


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Wed 14 Nov 12 #315 
jmaxg
Contributor

This forum has ended


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Wed 14 Nov 12 #316 
soupy
Member

PRAISE THE LORD! just kidding



Hey I read in the paper today that some Arkansans are trying to secede from the US because they didn't like the results of the election,they said they have at least 2000 signatures and that about 4 other states are doing it too,
Maybe they should should just move to another country if it is so bad here!


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Wed 14 Nov 12 #317 
southshoregirl

There are a bunch of states trying to secede, soupy. There are a lot of unhappy people.

To tell you the truth, jmaxg, I didn't love the idea of Romney at all. I loved NEWT! He was my first choice because he is smart! I like smart. I don't care what the presidential candidates say about abortion because it is really something the states decide. I think people should not be forced to have an unwanted baby. I would not like to see so many late term/quasi-infanticides as we have. It's bad for the mother and I guess there's no denying that that one is bad for the kid, too! Seriously, the abortion issue is serious! Why? Because it is eugenistic. Planned Parenthood was founded by a bigot who wanted to destroy the non-whites. That's a fact. The effect upon the Afro-Amer. population has made their ranks fall to 12% of the US population down from 18% in the previous, 2000, census. Abortions are used too often as birthcontrol and when done too often it leaves the girl/woman unable to actually have a live birth when she wants one. Believe me, Planned Parenthood is not doing minorities any favors.

Now, why do I like Newt. He is just so smart. He balanced the budget and had the balls to let the government sweat things out for a few days, until the congress came up with one. We need a damned budget! If you don't agree with anything else I have said do you at least agree with the fact that WE NEED A BUDGET and preferably a balanced budget? Good. I have to move on so I will wait until another time to see your reaction.

Oh, and the election is not formally over yet.


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Fri 16 Nov 12 #318 
jmaxg
Contributor

My reaction? My reaction is that I don't have a reaction. None of what was said above deserves a response.

You are just venting so, what's there to respond to?


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Fri 16 Nov 12 #319 
southshoregirl

It is not a mere vent, jmax. It is the truth. I will find corroborating information for you and you will learn a thing or two. Much of what I told you I knew but I recently heard an African-American woman speaking out about this very issue. Her concerns are that the blacks in this country will soon be all but eliminated because of Planned Parenthood's policy of purposely giving young black women under-dosages of birth control pills which result in unwanted pregnancies and consequent abortion. I am not venting. It is a fact and an ugly one, too.

You should try to defend minorities against groups which seek to harm them.


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Fri 16 Nov 12 #320 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Err...surely under-dosing birth control would lead to higher birth rates not a population dying out?

As far as conspiracy theories go, it's a pretty backwards one.


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Sat 17 Nov 12 #321 
southshoregirl

I researched it a bit last night amidst the eugenic aspect of Margaret Sanger is even mentioned in Wiki and it is mentioned in many other sources. I will get to posting some for you later. Why is it backwards? If if works, and apparently it is, why make a a drastic and inflammatory stink out of it? Just saying......


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Sun 18 Nov 12 #322 
jmaxg
Contributor

Yeah, well, whatever, knock yourself out.

For those that don't know, "eugenics" was a theory popularised back in the early part of the 20th century, that amounted to applying systems that would retard or stop the breeding mechanisms of those demographics (there's that word again) regarded by "others" as not ideal relative to the furthering of the human race as a whole.

In other words, let's "breed out the flaws". Except that nobody really knew what a flaw was and who it was that exemplified that flaw. And so, the entire concept seemed to lean towards opportunism.

The concept was actually deemed as acceptable by many prominent people of the time including H.G. Wells, George Bernard Shaw and Albert Einstein.

In the absence of defined "flaws" and defined "sources of flaws", Nazi Germany applied eugenics as a supporting philosophy behind their documented "Final Solution" as it applied to the extermination of six million Jews during World War II.


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Sun 18 Nov 12 #323 
kevg
The Grumpinator

wtf are we arguing about now, I've completely lost track ??


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Sun 18 Nov 12 #324 
jmaxg
Contributor

Oh, you're a great candidate, you are!

You heard it here first folks......"I'm an idiot!"

*chuckle

(like shootin' fish in a barrel)


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Sun 18 Nov 12 #325 
jackson
Contributor

time out



brief interlude for a history lesson


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Mon 19 Nov 12 #326 
southshoregirl

Kev, jmax is denying that Margaret Sanger, the founder of Plannned Parenthood, is not a bigot , racist who felt that the light one's skin the more worthy they were. She wanted to practice eugenics in her clinics to reduce the non-whites. It is a fact, not pretty, morally disgusting, but true. Jmax, why can you not accept that as the truth because it is the truth? Life is full of ugly things and we have to deal with them and in the case of Planned Parenthood, it means to stop public funding to practice eugenics.


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Mon 19 Nov 12 #327 
southshoregirl

BTW, great interlude, jackson and impeccably true!


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Mon 19 Nov 12 #328 
sally906
Contributor

If a woman is taking the pill she doesn't fall pregnant. That is the point of the pill. So why make it easier for someone to fall pregnant if you are wanting to wipe out a race. Surely it would be better to make sure they never came off the pill?

I just don't get the argument - well not the evidence for the argument anyway. Why does having an abortion wipe a race out when stopping the pregnancy in the first place would be easier?


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Mon 19 Nov 12 #329 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

SSG "explained" to me in a PM that the idea is that there will be more unplanned pregnancies amongst black women who are taking under-dosed pills from Planned Pregnancy. This will lead to more abortions and multiple abortions in the same women will lead to an inability to conceive.

I can only imagine that it's some kind of confusion that has arisen from the (justifiable) use of the "low-dose" contraceptive pill. If it's actually some kind of conspiracy then it's one that has been concocted by complete idiots.

As for eugenics, SSG says it's even mentioned in Wikipedia. In the same section, Wiki also says "Sanger believed the responsibility for birth control should remain in the hands of able-minded individual parents rather than the state, and that self-determining motherhood was the only unshakable foundation for racial betterment". I'm not sure how "self-determining motherhood" fits in with trying to eliminate an entire race...

But, yes, she was an advocate of eugenics. However, if you actually read the article it's clear that she was trying to weed out the mentally unfit - not any racial group (which I'm not saying is more defensible).

The article goes on to say "Sanger believed that lighter-skinned races were superior to darker-skinned races, but would not tolerate bigotry among her staff, nor any refusal to work within interracial projects". It mentions that Martin Luther King Jr was a supporter of her work (which certainly doesn't preclude that he had the wool pull over his eyes, of course).

So, was she racist? Yes, maybe a little. Bigoted? I don't think so but you can form your own opinions.

Is it a fact that she wanted to practice eugenics to reduce non-whites? No. It's a theory and one for which there doesn't seem to be much evidence whatsoever.


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Mon 19 Nov 12 #330 
sally906
Contributor

Thanks Doc. SSG wasn't having a go at your statement was just trying to understand the theory :)


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Mon 19 Nov 12 #331 
kevg
The Grumpinator

ooo I hate that !! SSG is going to get told off !! "case closed" is almost as bad as "end of". Putting forward an argument then denying their is any other argument is childish and ridiculously arrogant. Do not ever put that again !!

Eugenics was a popular theory pre-war, unsurprisingly Hitler was a fan but by no means the only one. Like most other theories it still has it's devotee's, not me you'll be surprised to hear. At it's base level it seems reasonable but on a case by case basis soon loses it's credibility.


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Mon 19 Nov 12 #332 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Again, just to take from Wikipedia (I always feel dirty using it as a source but I'm lazy)...

"At its peak of popularity eugenics was supported by a wide variety of prominent people, including Winston Churchill, Margaret Sanger, Marie Stopes, H. G. Wells, Theodore Roosevelt, George Bernard Shaw, John Maynard Keynes, John Harvey Kellogg, Linus Pauling and Sidney Webb."


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Mon 19 Nov 12 #333 
southshoregirl

But Stu, there are many sources to look at to verify what I said. I will be glad to post some if you like. Kev is right.....I never should say case closed. The well know fact that some great and well known men were also intrigued with eugenics does not excuse it, either, by the way? Does it? Like Kev, you are probably surprised that I take a hard line against it but I find it appalling that Sanger's beliefs are not fully understood. I think eugenics are great for breeding dogs and horses, not people.

Stu, I cringed at having used Wiki as a source but since it was even in there figured i was ubiquitously know. I think it was the first and will be the last time I use it as a source.


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Mon 19 Nov 12 #334 
Proofreader
Member

I do not think any of Sanger's "eugenical"motives are now a part of Planned Parenthood. I was a volunteer for that organization at one time, and among other positive experiences, I remember overhearing a conversation between two women expressing their gratitude for the availability of contraceptives and yearly check-ups at a reasonable price provided at the clinic. Other women in the room heard this too, and smiled and nodded.


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Mon 19 Nov 12 #335 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

No, no beliefs are excused on the basis of how many people or great men believe them.

However, if you're going to pick one person who espoused some facets of eugenics (whilst arguing against others - particularly the Nazi approach) and call them a bigot, out to cull the non-white population, then I think you've got to apply the same standards to other proponents.

Would you call Churchill a bigot? Or Roosevelt? George Bernard Shaw?

And by all means - post sources. Always. There really is absolutely no need to check whether I'd like them. Please feel free to assume that I want you to put as many links in as possible so I can check them out and increase the breadth of my knowledge.


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Mon 19 Nov 12 #336 
southshoregirl

Stu, I don't know if any of those men would admit to being bigots. Who wants that label? I am not implying anything when I say people can keep all their agendae secret, particularly if they were prominent and most particularly if they were in politics.

Proof, it isn't a policy of which you would likely been informed but you can easily read up on Margaret Sanger and draw your own conclusions.

As for me, I am so tired from having workers in my house I am going to nap. This flooding has taken its toll on me. See you later.


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Mon 19 Nov 12 #337 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Ah, so we're back to the endless fun of you claiming to have lots of sources that you'd be glad to share, and then not following through, huh?

Fair enough. You're tired. Understandable.

Just a rule of thumb though...

If people can read up on something and draw their own conclusions then it's not a "fact".


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Tue 20 Nov 12 #338 
southshoregirl

I know I have been very vague in the past but I have three sources already but I haven't the time to enter them now. That will have to wait until later. I wager to say that 4.5 feet of salt water would slow anyone's research abilities but I have three already. Yes, people will be free to draw there own conclusions. Believe me I don't have a dog in this fight.

I would post the sources now but my chicken scratch notes and half sleeping eyes will be deadly. I promise to post them later.


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Tue 20 Nov 12 #339 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Slow down your research?

Oh, sorry SSG - you'd said that you'd researched it four days ago and that you'd be glad to share what you found.

I'm sure there are more important things for you to be sorting out in the circumstances so if you didn't actually have sources then don't worry about it.


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Tue 20 Nov 12 #340 
Proofreader
Member

Margaret Sanger is long dead and gone...whatever her eugenic motivation was, it is not a policy of Planned Parenthood NOW....right, people??? 😊


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Tue 20 Nov 12 #341 
southshoregirl

As I told Stu in a PM I will be posting PP and Sanger's beliefs later. I have been delayed because of the storm repairs going on, etc. See you later.


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Wed 21 Nov 12 #342 
jmaxg
Contributor

Barb, go get your stuff done.

But the point is, you mentioned eugenics originally and, as most people within a thousand mile radius know, just don't go there.

To do so is to underestimate your fellow members. It's just that simple.


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Wed 21 Nov 12 #343 
southshoregirl

jmax. it is pretty well known to anyone who wants to just peek under the thinly veiled cover. Now, I am haveing a ton of pressure put on me about not listing sources at the time I posted that. I don't know if any of you knows what it is like to be in my shoes. If you would like the litany of obstacles to printed the sources in a timely manner I will do so. I did not fail to do so because they don't exist. They do. It is a sad commentary that people really don't know. For the time being you can simply type Margaret Sanger into youtube and you can HEAR her yourself! I will post some sources. And it will be done when I am not so exhausted from keeping up with the work going on in my house and caring for my 86 year old husband. If you are a music lover you can also find his recordings at Pianist Carlo Lombardi on youtube. Now, don't you all start bossing me around or I will get ripping mad. I have just had to pay out nearly $30.000 just to clean up the mess from Sandy and I don't know how much I will get back. Now I have to rebuild when I save up for it. For now it will be just a washer and dryer. I am not in a good mood. I have several good sources jotted down but I want to find the very best ones, even though the ones I have are fine.

Proof, I don't know what the current policies of Planned Parenthood are but I do know that they encourage abortion over adoption. That is the extent of my knowledge of current day PP. I have heard, not verified, that they offer few women's health services other than birth control and abortion. Proof, having volunteered you would know better than I do. Did they offer comprehensive mammograms and things through the organization? Please share what you know.

The subject of eugenics is a legitimate study, one which shaped populations in the 20th century. Until people face this reality it could affect anyone. It is better to learn about it than to hide your head in a hole. People need to know how to deal with it.

Tomorrow is a holiday and I am preparing some of the food today so the earliest I will post sources will be Friday.


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Wed 21 Nov 12 #344 
southshoregirl

And Stu, I will ask you in public to stop making fun of me. I do have feelings and I am fully prepared to post my sources. I want to do it right. I am being belittled and underestimated, as jmaxg stated and it is a terrible thing to do to me. I wouldn't do it to anyone. I have sent you PMs with the hope you would be more mature about this. Be so.


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Wed 21 Nov 12 #345 
Proofreader
Member

My understanding is that PP does not do mammograms, but refers women who need them to appropriate clinics and helps women get them at a low cost. it's been a long time since I was a volunteer, so I don't know the policy now. Hmm..I looked at the PP website and they DO give mammograms in certain situations.


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Wed 21 Nov 12 #346 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

There's no pressure, SSG except whatever you're placing on yourself.

I only asked for sources because you said you had them and you were glad to share them. You offered, I accepted. Then it seemed that you didn't have sources and I said not to worry about it. If you had sources but then decided that they weren't good enough then that's your call.

Nobody is asking you to do lots of research when you've got other things to do. We understand the circumstances and, as I said, I wouldn't have pushed you for sources if you hadn't said you had them and would be glad to share them.

I'm pretty sure jmaxg was also suggesting that you should go and do the more important things in life rather than pressuring you to research.

So, go and do the other things. Forget about the sources.


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Thu 22 Nov 12 #347 
sally906
Contributor

I went to the website http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/. They help women makes informed decisions about health issues. They help women decide on what birth control to use and if a women wants to have an abortion they council and give alternatives such as adoption.

Maybe they were once what you said but they don't appear to be like that now.

Certainly don't appear to be an organization hell bent one wiping out a whole race of people.

Organizations do change.

Please put your home to rights and look after you and yours no discussion is worth loosing sleep or raising blood pressure over. Please take care of yourself :)


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Thu 22 Nov 12 #348 
southshoregirl

I will try to post my sources today if I have a minute. It is a holiday for us and may have time. My new gas burner is out so though I know it is unbelievable, I will have a wokman in the house again before I go out. I will try to post the sources I have. They DO exist. I feel it is imortant to post them now that I have said that I have them.


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Sat 24 Nov 12 #349 
jmaxg
Contributor

Eugenics - An essay

It is understandable that the human condition would seek to improve itself.

But "improvement" is relative.

Therefore any logic associated with eugenics must be rendered invalid by virtue of it's non-appreciation of any societal structure beyond that proposed by eugenics.

In essence, overall considering much of human existence and that deemed by anthropologists to be society, it is a flawed and invalid theory.

Thus endeth the essay.

Oh, and by the way, if you wanna private message me and threaten me SSG? Please be more realistic. I mean, that was just funny.

But please! By all means! Have another go!


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Sat 24 Nov 12 #350 
Ajax
Contributor

I want a wokman in my house. I'm sick of cooking.


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Sat 24 Nov 12 #351 
jmaxg
Contributor

I got a wok. I had no idea a person was meant to follow that up.

Is that complimentary? I mean, some woks are really expensive.


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Mon 26 Nov 12 #352 
southshoregirl

I would like to offer room and board to a couple in exchange for housekeeping, cooking, and yardwork. Doesn't any one want a "situation"? I have a wok. I need someone to use it to prepare meals in it for me and I do not eat broccoli.


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Mon 26 Nov 12 #353 
southshoregirl

I will show you how to write a REAL essay one day, Jmax. I will wok really hard on it. I regret not having responded to the Planned Parenthood/Sanger/Eugenics issue yet but believe it or not I am just in a pissy mood because my electric keeps going out for no special reason and I keep finding that the people whould had cleaned the gunk out of my house had thrown out some thins they shouldn't have thrown out at all. These are very bothersome to me and I have not spent a second looking up anything.

Amalia, you said way earlier that it was important this recent election of Obama is the one that is the most important one, the one that counts most in the world. What are your thoughts on that I don't know you at all except that you are a very good player.


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Mon 26 Nov 12 #354 
Ajax
Contributor

I do not serve those who do not eat broccoli.


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Mon 26 Nov 12 #355 
southshoregirl

That is your right. You are free to eat it, Ajax and I do not want you to serve me. I just need you as a friend.


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Tue 27 Nov 12 #356 
jmaxg
Contributor

Look, we are done in this forum.

If nobody has any objections by way of a post within the next 24 hours, let's shut this rather good interaction (overall) down.


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Tue 27 Nov 12 #357 
southshoregirl

Edgy, jmax?


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Tue 27 Nov 12 #358 
jmaxg
Contributor

It's seen it's purpose.

You wanna do the eugenics thing then create your own forum.


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Tue 27 Nov 12 #359 
southshoregirl

It's up to Stu, isn't it? The eugenics thing isn't dead yet. This has rambled and rumbled a very long time.


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Thu 29 Nov 12 #360 
jmaxg
Contributor

No it isn't.


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Fri 30 Nov 12 #361 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

I'm happy for it to close naturally when people stop posting. We don't generally get too fussy about people going off-topic so I don't see any reason to start here.

Besides, SSG has said that she feels it's important to post her sources and it would be mean to deprive her of the opportunity to do it if she feels it's important.


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Fri 30 Nov 12 #362 
southshoregirl

There comes a point in my life when I choose to let ignorance reign. I am suffering form a concussion , have my house ripped apart from the flood and to be perfectly honest, if nobody cares to investigate the eugenic aspects of Margaret Sanger themselves it is going to be quite some time befoe I am inclined to present such information, though readily available, written down, in fact, to a hostile crowd.

Stu, you can end it if you want. I am through trying to talk truth to people who do not want to know it. I am done. I have better things to do right now and my head is killing me

Do as you wish, Stu. I don't like the totally contentious nature of this discussion any longer.


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Fri 30 Nov 12 #363 
southshoregirl

Oh, yeah, jmax, you have acted like an ass.


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Fri 30 Nov 12 #364 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Fair enough, I'll close it.

I think it's pretty clear that, despite people saying they're interested in what you've found, despite having two weeks to post them, despite saying you'd be happy to post them, despite you saying that you think it's important that you post what you've found, you've got no intention of posting anything.

I know you've had a rough ride of late but all that was asked of you was to fulfill your offer to share information you'd already dug up. No extra work - just a bit of cutting and pasting.

So, there's obviously no point in leaving this open for you. If you suddenly find new sources good enough (in your eyes) to prove your point let me know and I'll open it back up for you.


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This topic is now closed.






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