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Sun 22 Jul 12 #1 
Proofreader
Member


As our governor said, "Our hearts are broken." It is a tragedy, just like any time an innocent person anywhere in the world is killed. So much sadness and anger here.
One question I have is why can a civilian buy an assault weapon? Shouldn't such weapons be limited to military and police use?


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Mon 23 Jul 12 #2 
kevg
The Grumpinator

I believe a full automatic assault rifle is illegal. This nutcase used a semi-auto which jammed. He then used a shotgun and a 9mm semi-auto pistol. Awful crime and he is gonna go to the chair.
The whole gun law thing needs looking at, I have no problem with someone having a personal weapon for defence but this guy ordered 6,000 rounds of ammo just before he flipped. Did something not ring a bell ??
I would say that if we legalised guns we would have mass slaughter on a saturday night, all drunk and spoiling for a fight.


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Mon 23 Jul 12 #3 
sally906
Contributor

I heard on the radio today that the local gun club knocked back his application to join the club because when they called him back and got his message bank they found the message to be very disturbing.

I heard about the 6,000 rounds. You would think it would have rung alarm bells!!


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Tue 24 Jul 12 #4 
southshoregirl

It is highly suspiscious that this guy had the means to but these expensvie items. How'd he do it? Also if guns were carried by lawful citizens with good intent one of them could have taken him out with a a good shot or two and lowered the death and injury toll. We need more lenient gun laws. Witness Chicago and the bloodbath goimg on there right now with illegal guns........

The Aurora monster was armed to the gills. He had to have help acquiring them but from who?


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Tue 24 Jul 12 #5 
kevg
The Grumpinator

don't tell me, it was O'Bama !!


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Tue 24 Jul 12 #6 
southshoregirl

I didn't say that at all. Did someone imply that? Crazy.


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Tue 24 Jul 12 #7 
southshoregirl

I think any citizen should be allowed to own any weapon that the governement can use. It keeps things equal. That's not my idea. It was Thomas Jefferson's.


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Tue 24 Jul 12 #8 
kevg
The Grumpinator

That was nearly 250 years ago Barb, should we still have slavery as well ? It was alive and flourishing then.
As far as I'm aware the guy was fully armoured from head to foot so a citizen firing a 9mm at him wasn't going to do much.
Do you intend to rebel against your government ? If not why do you need weapons ?
A policeman in USA shot his son dead this week cos he came in late and dad was asleep, heard a noise and fired.
A guy went to his door to answer a late night call, it was cops who didn't identify themselves, he went armed and they shot him dead.
The list goes on.
Keeping guns at home is a bad thing !
Gun clubs are a good thing !!

Always an exception of course, but these guys weren't wearing state of art armour.
robbery gone wrong


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Wed 25 Jul 12 #9 
kevg
The Grumpinator

Oh and by the way, it is still legal for private citizens to carry weapons and no-one fired at him !!


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Wed 25 Jul 12 #10 
jmaxg
Contributor

The idea of every citizen owning a weapon equal to their government is essentially a rubbish idea. It defeats every purpose of having a government or even a constitution. So what? You wake up one morning and you are not happy with your government? So ya take your "equal weapon" to exact "equal damage"? Simple nonsense.

And I defy you to produce the statement where Thomas Jefferson backs up that idea. Jefferson said:

"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."

~ Jefferson's letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

That hardly backs up in any way what you said above.

The relevance of the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution has long since passed. But lobby groups led by the NRA have kept the statement itself alive. A statement so nonsensical that it barely makes the grade as English.

Most western countries have long since imposed logical restrictions on gun ownership. The US is the glaring exception and the incidence of civilian death by guns is the glaring statistic.

My own opinion is that it is a deep, endemic problem that has to be overcome or the US of A will devolve to a "wild west" stage and it's society will eventually shatter due to uncontrollable anarchy.


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Sun 29 Jul 12 #11 
southshoregirl

Cities and states which have the strictest gun control laws have the highest incidence of gun misuse, of murders, of armed robberies, etc. There is a right given to us which allows us to have guns and we should have them. NY State has tough laws in my county to get a pistol permit. Other people get them without permits. So what is the problem here? Non-permitted people who don't have background checks get pistols and use them. Someone like me who has never had even a traffic STOP is not likely to cause any problems but I don't have a pistol and I don't want one. I'd tather get a a shotgun and blast an intruder or get a big vicious dog to rip them apart. Knife throwing would be a valuable skill to learn too. LOL KEV! JMAXG! You will never rid this country of guns. It's part of the culture, particulary in the south and in the West! They aren't going to give up their guns without a FIGHT!

If you think the 2nd Amendment is all wrong you will need a 3/4 vote of Congress to change it. Good Luck! LOL


BTW, that is NOT the quote to which I referred. I will make a note of it when I next see it and emphatically NO, KEV, I do NOT think slavery should be left in place under any circumstances anywhere.


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Sun 29 Jul 12 #12 
southshoregirl

I do have a few machetes. I keep them sharp. Knives are scary. Someone held one to my neck once and I escaped. I was lucky to get away with my life. Adrenaline is a wonderful thing.


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Sun 29 Jul 12 #13 
kevg
The Grumpinator

I do understand your reasons SSW, I've often thought we should be allowed to carry arms for personal protection (especially on a saturday night) but unfortunately nutcases per capita in USA outnumber us by gazillions. You are not yet a mature Nation, so take the toys away and get back to the playpen til we decide you are responsible enough.


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Sun 29 Jul 12 #14 
southshoregirl

See, that is becoming a big problem. Nothing but the US Constitution can determine what we have a right to do except the laws of our states. There are a gazillion nutcases here so let's have the US decide what happens here and leave it at that. We don't come over there and kill Europeans so it shouldn't be of any concern to you, Kev.


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Sun 29 Jul 12 #15 
southshoregirl

What's wrong with the video? The man shot the thugs in self defense. I'd have done the same thing is I could shoot a pistol. If it comes down to me surviving or a criminal the choice is easy. It would be for you, too. Those thugs didn't have licenses.....they had illegally obtained handguns or else the live in a state with no gun laws.


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Mon 30 Jul 12 #16 
southshoregirl

I just want to say one thing to non-Americans. I respectfully suggest you learn the US Constitution and the essence of its meaning before you trash it. I just wouldn't ever question another country's laws, Constitution or treaties, etc. I would ask question and want opinions but I would accept the laws of the land as just that. How can non-citizens do anything more than that? It is wrong and I am not saying that asking questions is wrong. It is wrong to DECLARE something is wrong. We left Europe, please recall, (or elsewhere) so please know that our ancestors wanted something different than what they had. Thank you very much for respecting my country.


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Mon 30 Jul 12 #17 
jmaxg
Contributor

Well, I am a non-American. But after living in this country for 10 years, AND been through the gamut of qualifying questions by the US government, I feel that I know the US Constitution better than most. Definitely better than the average US citizen.

To their defense, it's not the average US citizen's fault. "Civics" has been taken off of the school curriculum since the 1960s and was done so due to political lobbying. It seems the powers that be worked out early that a dumb electorate is a pliable electorate.

This preoccupation with weaponry is tempered by an interesting statistic.....for every 4 people that pick up a weapon in the United States, at least one of them is statistically guaranteed to injure themselves with that same weapon.

Ironic? Perhaps but I tend to think that brother kev hit the nail on the head in post#13 above.


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Mon 30 Jul 12 #18 
kevg
The Grumpinator

The US Constitution is now 250 years old, are you going to treat it as a Bible that must be adhered to without thought. There are people who live their lives strictly by the Bible (or their interpretation of it) we call them nutcases. Times change in 250 years, I doubt the Founding Fathers pictured kids being able to buy semi-automatic weapons "for personal protection" although they may have had a few "survivalist" nutjobs. I suppose half of USA then was "survivalists" but at least they had a reason for it.
Respect your country ?? Nah, we'll take you on !! You want another go ?? You'll be so busy making sure the lesbian and homosexuals have adequate toilet facilities that we'll burn Washington again !!


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Mon 30 Jul 12 #19 
southshoregirl

SILLY! Willl write later.


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Mon 30 Jul 12 #20 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

The US Constitution may be 250 years old in one regard but in its current form it's only 20 years old. The last amendment to the constitution occurred in May 1992.

The majority of the rights that come from the constitution are enshrined in the Bill of Rights - which are, of course, amendments. The right to bear arms came four years after the original drafting of the constitution and for all people talk about the intentions of the Founding Fathers, the Bill of Rights came from a proposal from a single Founding Father - James Madison - which was subsequently modified by the House and Senate.

The need to add to and amend the constitution was understood even four short years after the initial draft and has continued to be understood by all levels of US government ever since. Amendments have been revoked in the past so there's also precedent there.

The constitution is not a Biblical authority which is beyond amendment.


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Tue 31 Jul 12 #21 
USS Palladin
Contributor

Second Amendment


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Tue 31 Jul 12 #22 
shortbreadforme27
Contributor

The availability of weapons thru whatever channel they are obtained is always a REAL concern for law enforcement agencies who despite strict laws and intelligence led policing are fighting a losing battle against people who wish to use firearms in the pursuit of criminal activity.

As a former member of the thin blue line - my advice to ALL of you who feel the need to intervene with weapons in situations like the internet cafe video above is DON'T.

The guy in the video was literally shooting at anything that moved - on this occasion he got lucky - I pose the question what if one of his bullets had hit (and killled or injured) an innocent passer by what kind of hero would he have been then?


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Tue 31 Jul 12 #23 
USS Palladin
Contributor

As the "Fast and Furious" gun case proves, even the government doesn't know what it is doing with guns......

The Second Amendment is here to stay and in some ways it is a good thing. What nutcases don't get is even if it is right it doesn't mean it can't be regulated because most rights do come with regulations and rules. For the most part we have enough rules and regulations in regards to guns, in some states they are stricter than others, what they lack is uniformity. Why the federal government doesn't establish a federal gun code is beyond me. They establish agencies to protect voters rights, women's rights etc, etc, etc. There should be no reason why it is difficult to obtain a firearm in New York while you can go by mass quantities of firearms in Arizona for sale across the border in Mexico. Honestly, 16 year old males walking into gun stores in Arizona and purchasing 250,000 dollars worth of AK-47's??? Unbelievable!! Still waiting on AG Holden to answer about all that but I am not holding my breath.
Most folks that own a gun DO NOT know how to use it and most never will. In Ohio to carry a concealed weapon you have to pass a written test and a firearms test proving you know how to use it safely. To me that is a start.

I like my guns, I like to shoot, I suppose I would use it in self defense if I had too, but I'd like to think that I would try to avoid situations of that sort. Of course one does not expect to go to the movies and get slaughtered. In the end it will get down to registration of all firearms in this country. You will get to keep them but the government will know you have them and for some that is just pushing the line a bit too far.

I am in the process of obtaining a new weapon, I look forward to seeing how and what the paperwork is going to be like. :-)

Shortie you bring up a good point and I am all well and good with the police handling all that but every time the going gets tough economically the first things politicians do is cut public safety. God forbid they cut much in administration or their salary but it is always we will cut public safety unless you let us raise taxes and that is what they do, so what is the average joe supposed to do? Not protect his family?

My final thought is that if more folks had trust in their government they may not think that they have to have weapons to protect themselves from it. I guess I should ask a Syrian.......


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Wed 1 Aug 12 #24 
jmaxg
Contributor

Not gun stores, Skip.....gun exhibitions. There is a loophole in some states, maybe most.......if you attend a gun exhibition and claim you are a "collector", you can buy a weapon at that exhibition from somebody that claims they have a "collection".

But whereas in normal countries where if you are a weapons collector and you seek weapons for historical significance or aesthetic beauty, and those weapons are regulated to be inert, no such regulations exist here in the United States.

Simply go to a weapon exhibition, claim to be a collector, buy any weapon you like with NO background check or cooling off period, and those weapons can be as live and lethal as they like. Pay the money, take the piece.

THAT is just a hopeless situation and one of the reasons why the United States is basically a dangerous country to live in.

Look, I don't give a toss if you think you can handle a weapon or not. That is not the point.

WHY one thinks they need a weapon is the main point.

Wanting to acquire a weapon just to counter some nutjob that decided to kill a cinema session is not a very good reason. The stats say in the unlikely event it were to happen again, even if you were there and armed, you would still be shot.

The difference between the cavalier attitude of having the gun and actually using it effectively under that sort of situation is statistically enormous.

The rest of it is just plain bravura and therefore means little in a practical sense.


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Wed 1 Aug 12 #25 
USS Palladin
Contributor

They bought those guns for "Fast and Furious" at gun stores......

So your point is that we have a hodgepodge of regulations in regards to guns thus making the control of them difficult. I agree and I agree that there needs to be some sort of control and I think this sort of control needs to be taken away from states.

Statistics about whether you are safer with a gun or not are a bunch of hogwash or whether you are more likely to get shot because you have one vs. not having one is just plain ridiculous. I guess if you are the first victim, yeah, the statistics weren't in you favor but it doesn't seem to me he was picking on the armed ones only and he would have been more focused on shooting back at the one shooting at him. Look, I have a CWP but I don't carry and I doubt I would have been carrying then. So I probably would have been dead. The point is EVEN the Feds can't regulate guns in their own sting operations so let's start with a total revamp of the laws.

Why one thinks they need to own a weapon, well that is pretty obvious. Violence. Why do we need to own nuclear weapons, because the other guy has them. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king, in the land with no guns, the guy with the gun rules. As Mao said all power comes from the barrel of a gun. Go about changing society so that it is more fair and equitable etc, etc, etc thus alleviating the need for people to seek redress through violent means than maybe you can eliminate guns. Still won't help you with the nut cases though......


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Wed 1 Aug 12 #26 
Proofreader
Member

From what I have read, in every case of a mass murderer, someone knew that person (or,in the case of Columbine High School, those people) had a problem.
Often families know. Teachers at Columbine were concerned about the violent films and essays those boys produced. That college student in Virginia lived with other young men and never ever spoke to any of them...they knew he was very weird. The question
is:What can a person do? I heard that a N.Y. police official advises "If you see something, SAY something." In other words, as a society we need to be more alert, more aware, and more willing to report our concerns to authorities. Not every tragedy can be avoided, unfortunately, but we need to try harder in all ways....better gun control, vigorous education about reducing violence from preschool on up, and expanded mental health care.


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Thu 2 Aug 12 #27 
southshoregirl

Who is deleting my posts? That is all wromg!


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Thu 2 Aug 12 #28 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Three people are capable of deleting your posts, SSG. You, me and the Count.

I can't vouch for the Count (but I don't believe that it's likely that he's deleted anything). I only just returned from London and I certainly haven't deleted anything.


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Thu 2 Aug 12 #29 
southshoregirl

I don't doubt you, Factenstein, but where could they have gone? I didn't delete them. It is a bit strange to me. I KNOW at least one was absolutely, definitely 100% deleted because I remember the exact words and they were not even offensive. People may not like my opinions but I have taken great care to be unoffensive personally to anyone and, I must add, so too, have they to me. But if my ideas and opinions are not liked by someone there is no excuse for anyone to think they should not be expressed, right?


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Thu 2 Aug 12 #30 
southshoregirl

Proofreader, you are right about what you are saying. "If you see something, say something" That is really the first line of defense we all should look to. I am not a violent person who has a gun or is going to get one. I would much prefer having the police handle people with guns. I am, the biggest scaredy-cat in the world BUT if I were in a situation where I could not get help I would certainly be wishing for a weapon with which to protect myself.


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Thu 2 Aug 12 #31 
Lucy
Contributor

Dead is dead--when it happens to you--you understand changing gun laws.


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Fri 3 Aug 12 #32 
southshoregirl

There is no way to prevent a criminal from obtaining and using a gun any more than there is to leave a glass of ice water in a room with a man dying of thirst. Where there's a will there's a way. California, your state, is full of illegal aliens and a good number of them of them have guns. Sad but true. Show me a population with heavy drug use and I will show you a group of people who have weapons which they use. Legalize and tax currently illicit drugs. What is the problem out there? I mean all the bankrupt cities? That's nasty stuff. My county is on the list of likely to go bankrupt also. Total graft and corrupt governement officials.


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Fri 3 Aug 12 #33 
jmaxg
Contributor

"In other words, as a society we need to be more alert, more aware, and more willing to report our concerns to authorities."

and....

"There is no way to prevent a criminal from obtaining and using a gun any more than there is to leave a glass of ice water in a room with a man dying of thirst."

Sure there is! Get the US Department of Justice to issue the instruction to ALL local law enforcement: "You encounter an illegal weapon holder? Go all 'Rodney King' on their ass!" That'll fix the problem real quick. And somebody reporting that they saw somebody with a weapon would be particularly useful.

The end result, hopefully, would be that anyone that carried an illegal weapon would get the crap beaten out of them and the rest of us would watch and make "tsk, tsk" noises.

But you can't do that in this country because of "state's rights".


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Fri 3 Aug 12 #34 
USS Palladin
Contributor

"Sure there is! Get the US Department of Justice to issue the instruction to ALL local law enforcement: "You encounter an illegal weapon holder? Go all 'Rodney King' on their ass!" That'll fix the problem real quick."

Break the law to enforce the law? See this is why the debate always ends up this way. If the police are going to do this and not follow procedure, then yes I will keep my guns thank you very much.

With statements like that I am sure the NRA thanks you too........


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Fri 3 Aug 12 #35 
southshoregirl

Yes, you can't breaK the law to enforce it. Get over it, jmaxg. The law is the law. As it stands people are given the right to have weapons. If is is abhorrent to you I would sugggest you move to NYC where the gun laws are extremely strict. I don't think you will be any safer, personally, but you will get your tight-assed gun laws.

Yes, we do have state rights because that is how our Constitutional Republic was set up. Find a state with laws with which you feel comfortable. I am looking for one I feel better with so maybe you should do the same.

A bad cop is the worst. Honestly, I cannot think of anything more disappointing in our society.


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Tue 7 Aug 12 #36 
jmaxg
Contributor

Yeah, well........I guess it was going a little overboard to incite cops to ape on citizens.

But that was my "Utopia" in which normal citizens just can't buy or carry guns unless professionally authorized. A Utopia in which you can't just wake up one day and think "I think I'll buy myself a gun today".

Speaking of which, southern Wisconsin, seven dead at a Sikh temple. Not only do we sell guns to anybody, we sell guns to MORONS!

It's plain to me that this idiot thought he was attacking Muslims.

I express horror and extreme sadness over this. I also wonder if "The Darwin Awards" have just found themselves their next best candidate.

(I think the Darwin Awards only qualify if you kill yourself due to extreme stupidity and are negated if others are also killed. Not sure about that)


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Tue 7 Aug 12 #37 
USS Palladin
Contributor

Gun control is needed, no doubt, no doubt whatsoever, states can't do it and this is one area where I think the Federal Government has a role and I am not a big government guy.

Appears this may be an act of domestic terrorism still it is very, very sad.


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Tue 7 Aug 12 #38 
jmaxg
Contributor

Props to the policeman who took him out, by the way.

The cop himself was shot a number of times by the idiot in question before the cop then took a couple of well aimed shots and the assailant was negated....permanently.

Well done Officer. You did your job and then some.


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Thu 9 Aug 12 #39 
southshoregirl

I am going to say just 2 things to you anti-gun people and then I forget it. Number one we have been given the right to bear arms and it is written in the Bill of Rights. It has been there for a long time and it will stay there and be regulated only as local and state governments decide. It will not be removed from our Bill of Rights.
Number 2. Even if a city, let's just choose Chicago because that city with it's brilliant mayors, has passed plenty of restrictive gun laws. That one city has the highest murder rate in the country with the strictest gun regulations in the whole USA!

It is so elementary, dear Watson! Guns don't kill people! People kill people! Homicidal thugs will get weapons no matter what laws are passed and then only the criminals will have weapons. No thanks. I don't like that at all. I like sane good neighbors to be able to have guns for protection if they need them.

I have spoken my mind about this and I have nothing else to say and nobody will ever change my mind. I do not own a gun so don't worry about me coming after you!


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Thu 9 Aug 12 #40 
southshoregirl

One more quick addition: Screw the federal government! They are not going to get the people to turn in their guns at all! They have no business in controlling gun ownership anyway!


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Thu 9 Aug 12 #41 
Ajax
Contributor

A country that does not look after its mentally ill should not allow guns to be used willy-nilly. That is almost every country in the world.


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Thu 9 Aug 12 #42 
southshoregirl

That makes good sense, Ajax, and in my state, NewYork State, nobody can get a license to buy a pistol if they have even spoken to a psychiatrist or taken an antidepressant. The problem is that so many people acquire guns illegally. I fear that as our population grows mental illness will seem more prevalent just because there are more people, because there are more out patients who have mental illnesses but, Ajax, the worst driving force for most gun use is by illegal drug users who need money to buy their drugs. That a big problem and even though the occasional trgic mass slaying is horrible, individuals are killed daily by people with guns which they should not have because they are NUTS and need money for drugs. The sane, non-substance users need guns to protect themselves. That is how I see it.

What is the situation where you live, Ajax?


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #43 
Ajax
Contributor

Whenever someone is shot, it is in the news. You find out eventually, in most cases, that it was one criminal shooting another. I'm OK with that.

People use their fists or knives. Hard to take out 60 people at once with a knife.

To me, the right to bear arms is not like the right to breathe or the right to an education. It seems so unnecessary and self-perpetuating.

Two words. Swiss Army.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #44 
southshoregirl

There is much criminal on criminal crime here.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #45 
jmaxg
Contributor

Tell that to the people at the Sikh temple.

Or Aurora, Colarado.

Or the summer camp in Norway.

Or Senator Gabrielle Giffords.

Or the 35 unsuspecting dead at Port Arthur, Tasmania, Australia.

Or Columbine.

Criminal on criminal is one thing. Bored idiots with nothing better to do is something completely different.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #46 
Ajax
Contributor

Tell what?


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #47 
jmaxg
Contributor

That "bad" weaponry in the United States is all about criminal on criminal (post#44).


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #48 
Ajax
Contributor

I didn't take that as her meaning. I think it was a footnote.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #49 
jmaxg
Contributor

You may be right. Not taking back what I said though.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #50 
Ajax
Contributor

As luck would have it, I picked up my reserved copy of Catcher in the Rye from the library today. I realise that this probably puts me on a list somewhere, but I've been putting off reading even since I was supposed to read it in high school.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #51 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

I'd hope it puts you on a list in the library otherwise they might never get the book back.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #52 
Ajax
Contributor

Really? Is it that good?


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #53 
southshoregirl

It is a rite of passage, Ajax.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #54 
southshoregirl

I correct you on Gabrielle Giffords: She was a Congresswoman not a Senator.

In a world with a population approaching almost 7 billion people please do your math and you will realize the absolutely minute number of incidents caused by guns in the US and you will see how ridiculous your entire argument is.

We have guns here to successfully revolt against a tyrannical government.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #55 
kevg
The Grumpinator

We have guns here to successfully revolt against a tyrannical government. ??????

A calm and reasoned argument if ever I saw one.
I assume you mean the present incumbent. Whilst I agree he is the most ineffectual President for many a long year I hardly think a revolution is called for. It's like a lot of kids arguing, they run out of things to say and start fighting. Idiots.
I'm no fan of O'Bama but I don't see a tyrannical government there. You would have had fun with our Labour Party in the 70's !!!!!!!!


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #56 
southshoregirl

I am referring to ANY tyrannical government.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #57 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Why do you say you have the right to bear arms "to successfully revolt"?

I'm not quibbling about the split infinitive, I just wonder why you included the word "successfully". Do you think that a successful civilian revolt against some supposed tyrannical government is the likely outcome?


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #58 
southshoregirl

It happened in 1776, didn't it? (Sorry about the grammar). Stu, it is very important to most Americans to have that right. It is just an American thing. It is not likely to disappear in the near future. We do not want a dictator, a monarchy, an empire or anything but what we have. I know it is hard for Europeans to understand it but it is a real and true undercurrent in this country.

I think the American polulace is able to succeed in thwarting a tyrannical government. I live my life knowing that it is the truth. Americans threw off the yoke once before and they will do it again if necessary. It should be no suprise to anyone. I won't discuss the biggest problem all western states face. That can wait for another day. I am greatly fatigued form the heat. I am going to nap.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #59 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Well, lots of things have happened successfully in the past but that's no guarantee that they'll be successful in the future.

Do you not think that in this day and age, even with the small arms available to you due to your Bill of Rights, an armed insurrection is unlikely to succeed?

Bear in mind that the arms cache that the British seized in 1775 wasn't just a stash of pistols and muskets. The rebel militia had been stock-piling arms including cannons. State of the art heavy weaponry (although the exact pieces found were suitable more for siege warfare than battlefield operations).

In other words, the rebels were building up stocks of heavy weaponry comparable to anything the British regulars had. That's not the case today, is it? Even state with the most lax gun laws wouldn't allow you to get hold of the kind of ordinance used by the army - let alone armour or air support.

Do you think ordinary citizens should be allowed access to that kind of military hardware so it isn't just in the hands of the potentially tyrannical government or do you think that the handgun in your neighbour's cupboard or the shooting rifle in a farmer's shed is going to keep pace with the US military?


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #60 
southshoregirl

I know the weaponry is totally different these days but I think that you might be surprised at the sort of weapons and the number of advanced weapons private citizens have acquired. There are, in fact, many organized militias which practice with regularity in anticipation of events they feel will make them necessary. I think the large number of returning troops are well-versed in the weapons and, as it is with anythng else, anything can be had for a price! I think, and I am being sincere, Stu, not trying to get your hackles up, that YES a concerted effort of a network of well organized militias could put up a damned good fight and topple an tyrannical government. I see extremely sophisticated weapons for sale online and I am not even looking for them. There are many chatrooms devoted to this very subject though they are very secretive and careful in choosing there words. If I knew the web address of one I would give it to you but I don't go to the sites I merely stumble upon them. I am not a participant.

Stu, there is a tremendous stockpile of weapons by civilians and it is all legal and the owners are responsible people. No, they don't have air support as far as I know but maybe they do? I fervently hope we never find out but I do think citizens should be allowed to have these weapons. They are, overall, responsible people and they are not looking for trouble.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #61 
southshoregirl

Also, long arms, such as shotguns and rifles are assumed to be for hunting and have virtually NO retrictions when purchasing them.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #62 
southshoregirl

Oh, not to act bratty but I think you meant "ordnance", not ordinance. Maybe it is different here than there.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #63 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

So, who in your mind is responsible for deciding when a government has descended into tyrrany making this armed rebellion necessary?

Where do you draw the line between justifiable uprising and armed bunch of separatist crackpots?


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #64 
jackson
Contributor

whereas in days of old it may have been possible to match the firepower of the government in ways, clearly that would not be possible today & no doubt any unconstitutional uprising would be quelled at the government's convenience. kidnapping & blackmail would likely be about the only tools available to the uprisers. while there may be a lot of small arma ya'd never get em on the same page. some sort of gun control is in order over here. has to start somewhere, then perhaps reasonable measures could be put in that would at least protect our children.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #65 
southshoregirl

Stu, do you think Syria has a tyranical government now?


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #66 
southshoregirl

Jackson, I disagree with you but you are entitled to your opinion, of course.


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Fri 10 Aug 12 #67 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Yes, I would say the cap fits there, SSG.


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Sat 11 Aug 12 #68 
southshoregirl

Yes, I think they are the victims of a tyrant and so do they. Wouldn't it be better for those poor people who are being slaughtered to be able to stand and fight using weapons and try to get rid of Assad? I think it is a cut and dry case of need for an armed populace.


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Sat 11 Aug 12 #69 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Well, some of those people (the FSA) are standing and fighting - using AK-47s and RPGs for the most part. Their main problem, though, is that they're still heavily out-gunned. Army deserters have been able to take small arms and more have been captured from government arsenals but they're lacking in armour, vehicles and air support. Deserters have had to abandon vehicles due to the lack of air cover.

Would more armed civilians have helped? Perhaps. Certainly the ranks of the FSA contain civilians. I'd still think, however, that you wouldn't want civilians owning RPGs or AK-47s.

But either way, Syria is at the end of 40 years of dictatorship under the al-Assad family following a military coup. The USA is at the end of more than 200 years of peaceful and stable democratic rule (following its own armed revolt).

I think that if you're pointing at Syria as an example of why your countrry needs its civilians to be armed, if you think that your country would have reverted to a monarchy or dictatorship if not for the right to bears arms then I think you're doing your country a disservice.

But hey - it's your opinion and you're quite welcome to it.


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Sat 11 Aug 12 #70 
Ajax
Contributor

It is probably difficult to articulate something that you have known as your truth for your whole life. I think the world would be safer if we don't purposely try to misunderstand each other.

Let's just accept that Americans like guns and Australians eat kangaroos, even if each other cannot wrap their head around it.


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Sat 11 Aug 12 #71 
sally906
Contributor

Oi - hands off skippy - he tastes yummy - don't knock it till you try it!


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Sat 11 Aug 12 #72 
soupy
Member

i'm american and i don't like guns don't even own one and i live by myself oh except for the 5 cats


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Sat 11 Aug 12 #73 
Ajax
Contributor

Hey sally, settle petal. I'm Australian and I eat roo. And wallaby too, because this is Tassie.


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Sat 11 Aug 12 #74 
soupy
Member

u go ajax aren't roos endangered?


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Sat 11 Aug 12 #75 
kevg
The Grumpinator

only when Ajax is about !!


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Sat 11 Aug 12 #76 
southshoregirl

The tasmanian devil is in sad shape. That is a terrible shame. Let's face it.....people will generally eat anything they have to eat if they have to in order to survive. Anything!

Ajax, you are a very sensible woman.


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Sat 11 Aug 12 #77 
Proofreader
Member

"Maybe it is good to be able to segue from murders and guns to food," said Pollyanna.


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Sat 11 Aug 12 #78 
southshoregirl

Yes, you are right I think.


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Mon 13 Aug 12 #79 
jmaxg
Contributor

The Tasmanian Devil actually played part in one of the singular most important biological experiments in history. Is cancer transferrable? As it happens, it is......under very specific and distasteful circumstances.

But as to the above, I agree with Doctor Factenstein. Despite countless efforts to change my mind on Facebook.

The Arab Spring may be just that, an event. A monumental and historic event. After 40 years of despots, is it so hard to believe that they decided to take their own course?

BUT don't assume their answer is "democracy". As I have noted in the last few years, their "answer" is whatever the hell they want it to be.


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Mon 13 Aug 12 #80 
Ajax
Contributor

Democracy isn't something that works when it is forced upon a country.

Have just finished reading THE Catcher In The Rye. I don't feel like killing anyone. What's up with that?


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Mon 13 Aug 12 #81 
jmaxg
Contributor

Democracy, when forced, defeats the purpose of democracy.

How ironic is that!

Wizzo!


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Mon 13 Aug 12 #82 
Ajax
Contributor

The things you learn from playing Sid Meyer's Civilisation.


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Mon 13 Aug 12 #83 
southshoregirl

Anyone who doesn't like living in a contitutional republic can make a move. Yes, the communicable cancer spread among the Tasmanian Devils is quite awful and it is very interesting in that it sort of shows that humans are not always responsible for these sad occurences. I hope good information can be gotten from this disease and applied to the study of the spread of disease in all animals. I have often thought that sometimes animals just have a certain amount of time alloted to them and then they are doomed for some reason. It's just a thought.

Ajax, I am so glad you don't feel like killing anyone. I don't feel like killing anyone either.

I believe that the so-called Arab Spring is a terrible event which radicalizes the Islamists and is a very sad thing for the women in those societies. The Muslim Brotherhood is a very disturbing group of radicals and I don't think the people who were living in any countries they have taken over are going to be in regrettable positions before long. I personally condemn their treatment of women and all women should do the same. We didn't do anything good there at all but help topple despots and allow possibly worse ones to take over. We had no business being there at all.


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Mon 13 Aug 12 #84 
sally906
Contributor

Millions of roos would disagree about being endangered - but there are many roo sub-species - so I guess certainly some could be, like the lesser white spotted fluffy tailed roo. (aaah - I'm making that one up BTY)

Here in the NT they are everywhere, see them most afternoons when I take the dog for a walk over in the bush - and driving at night can be a bit dodgy when they bounce out in front of you. You would certainly know it if your car hit a big one!!! Even a wallaby can do your headlights in.

When we went to Tassie a few years back we went to a Tassie Devil farm down near Hobart, which at the time was still free of the nasty disease - and I got to cuddle a baby one :)


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Tue 14 Aug 12 #85 
southshoregirl

I hope they can save the Tassies.


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Tue 14 Aug 12 #86 
Ajax
Contributor

There are wallabies everywhere here in Tassie. I always thought it was a bit of a laugh: "do you have kangaroos in the street?" Well we must have wallabies jumping up the street because of where the roadkill is situated. Everywhere.


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Tue 14 Aug 12 #87 
kevg
The Grumpinator

There are wild wallabies in the Isle of Man. Escaped from the zoo and set up home.


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Tue 14 Aug 12 #88 
southshoregirl

Come on, Kev! Are you tellng the truth? I'm going to ask Leagle Eagle. LOL I suppose it could be true. A flock of parrots has established itself near JFK airport and is doing very well.


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Fri 17 Aug 12 #89 
jmaxg
Contributor

Worrying note....

A law enforcement officer sat down to watch a movie in a movie theater the other day, and promptly shot himself in the ass.

I say that's worrying because even in a country where they are supposed to know how to handle weapons, and they are commissioned to do so, they do that.

Since I live here, I dunno whether to laugh or cry.


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Fri 17 Aug 12 #90 
soupy
Member

now i'm getting scared if he did that to himself imagine the poor perps


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Fri 17 Aug 12 #91 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

I've found a bunch of new articles saying that a 56 year old man with a license to carry a concealed firearm accidentally shot himself in the backside during a screening of the Bourne Legacy. The gun had come out of his pocket when he was adjusting himself in the seat and discharged when it fell to the floor.

None of the articles I've read mention that the 56 year old was a law enforcement officer.

Are you sure you've got the details right? I mean, I'm not sure whether it's more or less worrying either way.


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Fri 17 Aug 12 #92 
Ajax
Contributor

I love the headline we got here: Moviegoer shoots himself. IN THE BUM! They changed it though.


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Fri 17 Aug 12 #93 
soupy
Member

i think i'll just stay in ark where the rednecks just shoot each other


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Fri 17 Aug 12 #94 
Ajax
Contributor

You know, it's an Australian pastime to laugh at Americans.




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Fri 17 Aug 12 #95 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

I had images of you with two of all the animals for a minute there soupy.

Realisation dawned eventually.


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Fri 17 Aug 12 #96 
soupy
Member

omg how did i get here and to think i was making friends with u guys it's a funny world so i think i'll just stay here


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Fri 17 Aug 12 #97 
southshoregirl

jmaxg, I read last night that since the Aussie govt. had its citizens turn in their legal guns the crime rate has risen 300%. LOL Check it out.


soupy, do you think the arkies are going to willingly turn their guns in? Do you think? Just your opinion is fine.


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Fri 17 Aug 12 #98 
southshoregirl

That video of stupid Americans is really terrible. I know there are a lot of very uneducated Americans and it really pissed me off. I cannot tell you how angry it makes me to see these man on the street interviews and realize that these dorks don't read, don't discuss thing of any value, don't know history, don't know geography blah, blah, it is FREAKING pathetic and I think a big part of it comes from their parents plopping them in a school and thinking that they will learn everything there. Nothing could be more wrong. Parents have to teach their own kids a lot and have to instill a love of learning and reading. I cannot believe how stupid those people are. It is embarassing. I wonder what a similar man on the street interview would be like in Australia and in the UK. Those people should be ashamed of themselves. REALLY ashamed of themselves. It disgusts me. I am particulary annoyed that they have the right to vote when they don't know ANYTHING!!!!!


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Fri 17 Aug 12 #99 
southshoregirl

As per the man shooting himself in the bum, it is just an example of a jerk not handling his weapon safely. He should have had the safety on it. I'm glad he got his butt shot. That'll learn him! As a police officer he really should have known better.


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Fri 17 Aug 12 #100 
jmaxg
Contributor

Hold off on him being a police officer SSG. Dr. Facta is right. I must have picked up on an earlier erroneous report that he was somehow connected to law enforcement.

He was just a 56 year old guy with a concealed weapon who sat his butt down in a movie theatre and his gun fell out, struck the floor and went off.

Which, of course, makes it worse. Now he's just some dude that bought a gun in a state where you can conceal weapons legally. The only difference between him getting shot in the ass and some moviegoer getting shot in the head is an angle.


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Sat 18 Aug 12 #101 
southshoregirl

He should have known better. It is incumbent upon any any gun owner to know how how to handle a gun safely. You can bet your A** that he will be more careful now that he shot himself in the A**! What a dork he was! Yes, thank god no innocent wasn't shot. A guy like that need to get his mind straight! If he went to a shooting range occasionally to practice he would know what to do. Too bad he ....oh, never mind.


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Sat 18 Aug 12 #102 
Ajax
Contributor

Oh SSG, they can find stupid people on the street anywhere in the world and edit to suit. The point is just that Australians would prefer to laugh at Americans than anyone else. :)

But you have to admit, the last line was funny.


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Sat 18 Aug 12 #103 
southshoregirl

Yes, it is funny as hell but it s so pathetic that there are so many ignorant people out there.


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Sun 19 Aug 12 #104 
jmaxg
Contributor

Back in my day, when I was an Australian soldier, if you failed your regular weapons testing, after three times, you got served with a letter called a "show cause".

Your response? Please "show cause" as to why you should remain a qualified member of one of the finest armed forces on the face of the planet.

I took that seriously and always feared a "show cause". As a result, my weapons handling habits where always exemplary and my shooting scores were as close as I capable of.

My point is that every time a weapon was in my hands, it meant life or death and I took that oh, so seriously.

I expect nothing less from anybody else.........ever...........in history.


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Sun 19 Aug 12 #105 
southshoregirl

That is commendable, Jmax and that is how it should be how it should be not only with the miilitary but with civilian gunholders, too.


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Thu 23 Aug 12 #106 
southshoregirl

OK, I found something nobody can refute. This is the basis for WHY Americans can and do carry guns. There is no disputing the wisdom or intent, yes, the INTENT, of Thomas Jefferson . This is from the Federalist Papers.

"The Constitution of the United States asserts that all power is the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be armed at ll times."
Thomas Jefferson

I need not remind you that Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaratuon of Independence. This thought is what natural born American citizens hold to be true. We still do. You can find more information at ThomansJefferson.com


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Thu 23 Aug 12 #107 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

With all due respect to Thomas Jefferson, who was a brilliant man, he was neither a prophet nor an avatar of a divine being. He was just a man.

I'm not going so far as to say that he was wrong, I wouldn't presume that. However, he was writing for his times. Do you think that he wanted his words to be taken as unquestioned dogma for eternity?


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Thu 23 Aug 12 #108 
USS Palladin
Contributor

All due respect to Mr. Jefferson he wasn't at the Constituitional Convention either so I am not sure he was privy to all the discussion there regarding the 2nd amendment and while he is held in almost a divine status in this country we tend to overlook his philandering, his slave holdings, his debt and his refusal to serve (help) Adams when he was vice president preferring instead to undercut Adams from Monticello.

He also gets quoted a lot about the tree of liberty needing blood every once in awhile but that was not written in regards to the American Revolution but rather the French Revolution as he was our ambassador to France during the turbulent time and he appeared to be supporting the Terror for which that particular revolution was famous for. He would not get away with that today.


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Thu 23 Aug 12 #109 
Nemesis
Editor

Inscribed on the inside the Jefferson Memorial in Washington DC are some of his writings, including:

I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.


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Thu 23 Aug 12 #110 
Proofreader
Member

Let's hope our human minds progress and adopt Jefferson's outlook to "keep pace with the times."


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Thu 23 Aug 12 #111 
southshoregirl

Nemesis, I think TJ's words are more relevant for our country now than ever before. That is my opinion. There will always be lunatics out there so how will they be stopped if they are threatening innocent bystanders? I do not want to hear the answer "the police" or "the government" because in all likelihood none of them will be present. I do not understand why a decent citizen who can handle a weapon is so inappropriate? For now and probably for a long while to come, Jefferson's words are going to be held near and dear by a large majority of Americans. There's nothing barbarous about it. People in this country love their guns and most of them are very responsible with them. I think it will be a very long time before they will give them up without a fight.

There is no comparison to be made between the American and the French Revolutions.


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Thu 23 Aug 12 #112 
southshoregirl

Thomas Jefferson is our country's mega-mind! How can anything he thought, said or wrote be questioned by a true American! LOL (Sound of patriotic music playing in the background)


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Thu 23 Aug 12 #113 
southshoregirl

Thomas Jefferson is to the USA as Nemesis is to Factacular? Is that good? I sort of like it. If not ignore it. I am speaking of BRAINS!


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Fri 24 Aug 12 #114 
USS Palladin
Contributor

Well that is the interesting thing about legacy. When it involves a person it always seems to either be good or bad when actually in all truth it is somewhere in between.

They were discussing this today on the radio. How you are remembered, your legacy, is often determined by your very last act or by an act that was misrepresented.

In the case of Roberto Clemente, a much admired member of the Hall of Fame for baseball, he is revered not only for his baseball skills but more so for the facts relating to his death. Dying in an airplane crash taking relief supplies to Nicaragua in 1972. The reporter interviewed several sports reporters that covered Clemente while he played in Pittsburgh and while none doubted his athletic skills, in a town full of blue collar workers he wasn't considered a "gamer". Appears Roberto was a hypochondriac and was often more than not willing to come out of the game for the smallest of reasons and almost always refused to play a double header. He was liked but not loved and the love didn't really begin till he died.

On the opposite end Ty Cobb is vilified as being the meanest man in baseball. Great skills but hyper competitive, supposedly racist, etc, etc, etc. This reputation isn't all that deserved and only comes about because of the lies somebody wrote about him in a book that he interviewed Cobb for when he was in his eighties and in very poor health and drinking heavily . Of course it didn't help that this writers book was later made into a movie.

The point of all this is Jefferson has a great legacy. Much of it deserved and he certainly is one of the Presidents I admire. Yet I think it behooves us to look deeper, for he is a deeply flawed man and while he accomplished a lot, he wasn't about double dealing behind Adam's back, could play politics with the best of them and in today's world would probably considered a draft dodger as he never did serve in the Revolutionary Army. He also almost caused war with France during Adam's term etc, etc, etc. His support of the radicals during the French Revolution could almost be compared to supporting the tactics of Bashir Assad in Syria.

Seems me to me that the questioning of our leaders is just as American as you placing him on pedestal. He deserves his memorial, and his due respect but that shouldn't stop us from examining any leaders legacy.


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Fri 24 Aug 12 #115 
Ajax
Contributor

50 Cent has a lot of good points too, but I'm happy he's not running a country.


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Fri 24 Aug 12 #116 
soupy
Member

ajax i just fell out of my chair laughing at that last comment


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Fri 24 Aug 12 #117 
southshoregirl

Sorry, I don't know 50 Cent. There was an incident in NYC this morning and I know it is going to make jmaxg all puffed up gain but it was spurred by a personal beef. jmax wwill tell you the details.

Listen, As far as Jefferson goes, I think it is wrong to just say he was deeply flawed. Every human is flawed but I still admire him as a truly great American.

I can't really type because i have three bandaids on my left hand fingers. Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse!

I have to run. This wedding business is getting to be too time consuming for me.


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Fri 24 Aug 12 #118 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

It would be wrong just to say he was deeply flawed. It's a good job nobody did.


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Fri 24 Aug 12 #119 
southshoregirl

Is TJ hated in the UK?


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Sat 25 Aug 12 #120 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

I don't think we generally give him much thought to be honest.

I have certainly never met anyone who claimed to hate him. Then, it's a bit of a weird thing to hate dead people in my opinion.


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Sat 25 Aug 12 #121 
kevg
The Grumpinator

I hate zombies


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Sat 25 Aug 12 #122 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

Good point. I'm not partial to vampires either.


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Sat 25 Aug 12 #123 
Ajax
Contributor

duh, they are UNdead.


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Sat 25 Aug 12 #124 
Ajax
Contributor

At least in Australia, nobody give a rat's poot about your founding fathers, hence no opinion. Of course we are pretty ambivalent about our own as well.

There is a common saying in Australia: "We need to be careful. We're becoming like America."

And one of the most hated phrases is "The Leader of the Free World." I mean, the audacity!! Seriously offensive stuff.

That's about it. We befriend and/or admire individuals, but nobody really likes "America".

And don't start me on Bruce Willis.


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Sat 25 Aug 12 #125 
soupy
Member

I think i'll stay out of this one i like australians but i love my country although free world is a misnomer or maybe an oxymoron


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Sat 25 Aug 12 #126 
southshoregirl

I agree with you on phrases lile "Leader of the Free World". I think it is obnoxious and if Americans feel that way about their country they can keep it to themselves. Why do Aussies dislike America so much? I have had a lot of contact online with Australians and I never heard that it was important to avoid becoming like us. I agree with soupy that free world in now a misnomer. Things have changed here.

I know little, if anything, about Australia's founding mates. I know much more about the exploration.

I know a great deal about zombies. I feel like one right now. When I am not feeling like a zombie I will tell you all a strange tale about what happened to me yesterday when I encountered a young man who suffers from Tourette's Syndrome. OMG. It was surreal.


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Sat 25 Aug 12 #127 
kevg
The Grumpinator

As most people know Australia was founded by the same people who founded USA. Modesty forbids and all that.


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Sat 25 Aug 12 #128 
southshoregirl

yes, so why do the Aussie not like Americans?


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Sat 25 Aug 12 #129 
kevg
The Grumpinator

For the same reason the rest of the world doesn't like them.


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Sun 26 Aug 12 #130 
southshoregirl

You are a Manx and everyone hates you, too. Not because you are Manx.....they are fine. We just don't like you, Kevin. You just are always snooping around! LOL

Seriously, I can absolutely understand a lot of peoples not likeing us. But I think we have a lot of dislikes, too. I, personally, tend to like the countrymen of most places, truly, and I have never been to Australia but I am sure I would be fascinated by the place and the people. I have to say that I am an unabashed Anglophile but I love my country. There are a lot of things I would change but I do love the great mixtures of different people and I love that it is large enough to be so varied. It is just a good place. If other people don't like us I can't do anything about it. The chances are that I still like them.


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Mon 27 Aug 12 #131 
Ajax
Contributor

No, we don't hate Americans. We dislike the American society. Brings us back to doe, really. The guns.

We don't want to live in fear the way you do. We don't want to be brainwashed into believing we need to arm ourselves against each other. If we need to rise up against our government, we are pretty laid back about it and use a democratic process called "voting".

We don't want jerks like the guy from Kalamazoo who wanted to shoot a Canadian for speaking to him the wrong way.


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Mon 27 Aug 12 #132 
southshoregirl

I think you need to take into account the overpopulation of all the coastal areas that we have here. 90% of our population lives on 10% of the land. Whenever creatures are in an overly populated situation it seems as if people and animals get nuts. Yes, now that you've mentioned it, I have heard of voting. I wonder if it works. I hadn't heard about that guy from Kalamazoo. He sounds like a nutcase. I think we ought to compare the mental illness rates in Australia vs. the USA.

The guns again. Well, they aren't going away so we'll have to find something else to pick on. As long as you can stand Proofreader and me I don't suppose it matters too much.

I hate American society, too. It is not in a good state of affairs is it?


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Mon 27 Aug 12 #133 
Ajax
Contributor

Well, Australia doesn't do a very good job of looking after the mentally ill. But instead of shooting up a cinema or high school, people generally just top themselves here.

There are many things from America that I like. Very good quality cotton, for starters. The Carpenters and Barry Manilow. :) Pixar movies.


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Tue 28 Aug 12 #134 
southshoregirl

I love American made products and wish we had more of them. I can easily include woolens and cottons and silks from friendly nations, too. I resent that so many of our merchandise comes from China. It is pretty shabby stuff for the most part. I don't think need to remark on Asian music. I hate it.


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Tue 28 Aug 12 #135 
Ajax
Contributor

I am a passionate fan of Chinese music. Chinese hip hop is what I listen to most. Hubby doesn't mind it but complains that he can't understand the words. I say, what does it matter? I can't understand most of what is apparently sung in English and that is my first language.

I digress. What a surprise!


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Wed 29 Aug 12 #136 
southshoregirl

You need a nightclub act, Ajax. I love your sense of humour. Somehow I am always smiling after I read one of your posts! LOL One of my very favorite tapes, yes, it was a tape, was a Russian recording of mournful singing with Balaliaka music playing as an accompaniment. I think my son still has it. It was truly wonderful. Really!

Hmmmm, Chinese hip hop? Does that come with egg roll?


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Wed 29 Aug 12 #137 
Ajax
Contributor

You think I'm joking again!

I think egg roll is an American thing. I've never seen one.

I never listened to hip hop until I started learning mandarin. I'm 47 and gangsta! Actually what I like about Chinese hip hop is they don't rap about pumping phat bullets up yo ass, but rather about taking grandma for birthday dinner, listening to your mother, flowers in the garden, etc. love it.


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Wed 29 Aug 12 #138 
kevg
The Grumpinator

ying tong ying tong ying tong yiddle eye po


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Wed 29 Aug 12 #139 
soupy
Member

huh??


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Wed 29 Aug 12 #140 
jmaxg
Contributor

Reference Post#124 and how no Australian gives a poot about the Founding Fathers? That is not entirely correct. I do.

I was gonna try to weave it into some historical context so as to lessen the blow. But what the hell...is it what it is.

Australians are bigoted and racist and always have been. It's deeply ingrained to the point that they do not recognise it. Australians will say "I love the rest of the world!" and they do. The records show that.

When the West Indies cricket team visited in the 1960s, they were treated like gods. When Paul Robeson toured in the 1930s he was mobbed at every radio station.

But the fact still remains about Australia. When something happens relative to an Aboriginal person/family/person, it is automatically assumed that all do the same. We have the lowest opinions about our indigenous people than I think it's possible to have.

I personally think this has been "instilled" over generations by the British. BUT, our claim to an "egalitarian society" is complete rubbish.

We could be better and it would not be hard. But have no illusions. The British hangover is still with us.


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Wed 29 Aug 12 #141 
kevg
The Grumpinator

hahaha it's all the fault of the British ?? Yes Australians are bigoted (some of them), racist (some of them) but you'll never guess what. So is the rest of the world !! Aboriginals are seen as lazy drunkards, it must be the British again. Except half of USA thinks THEIR Aboriginals are lazy drunks !! Must be those damn British again.
I don't actually care if the world hates us, jealousy is a terrible thing, but to condemn racism then in the next sentence come out with something like that ?????


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Wed 29 Aug 12 #142 
Doctor Factenstein
Evil Genius

It's a lovely get-out, really, isn't it? Anything you don't like about your society? Blame the Brits!

When Australia are doing well in some sport or other, it's never because of the British. Then it's green and gold all the way. Anything less palatable? Damn Brits.

It's all a bit comical really.

Australia has been to all intents and purposes, independent from the UK for over one hundred years. Blaming Britain for any racism problems in Australia today is as ludicrous as me blaming any racism problems in the UK today on Queen Victoria.


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Wed 29 Aug 12 #143 
Ajax
Contributor

I can only find psychometric racism scales that apply to individuals, not an entire country, so I'll just have to let that one go.

I really did think I was the best at the "suicide bomber" communication style, but I might even have competition there.


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Wed 29 Aug 12 #144 
southshoregirl

I don't blame the Brits for squat anymore. I blame any bigotry in the US on our stupid government for being too big, for giving too much money away without any expectation of elevation of intellect, personal pride, family values, etc. As far as the American Indians go it is all out own fault that we ruined their hunting ground, limited their gathering routes and generally messed them up. Hell, I would start drinking if I didn't have a buffalo steak on the table a couple of times a week. We were absolutely horrid to steal their lands and I can take that back to my 1600s Dutch invaders if Brooklyn, NY. I don't feel guilt because I did not personally do it. But those were different days and at least the Indians were not enslaved.....

I like Ajax's idea of Chinese hip hop if only because it in non-violent. I think learning Mandarin is very admirable. Are you really doing that? I would have taken you for a left-brained person. Oh, well, even I can be wrong at times. See y'all later. It is finally a beautiful day here and I am going out with my dogs.


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Wed 29 Aug 12 #145 
Ajax
Contributor

Yes, ironic isn't it? A person with a communication disability learning her fifth language. I assure you I speak none of them well. And learning a tonal language when you have a robot voice is folly. But I love it.


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Fri 31 Aug 12 #146 
southshoregirl

That's great. Are you good at math, Ajax? I suck at math more than most things but the worst thing I do is type.


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Fri 31 Aug 12 #147 
Ajax
Contributor

Yes.


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Fri 31 Aug 12 #148 
southshoregirl

You are one of those people who are good at everything....including typing, I suppose? I want to learn a few languages. I think I would like French and German. I know a lot of Italian and Spanish but it gets confusing and I think maybe learning English might be beneficial, too.


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Sat 1 Sep 12 #149 
jmaxg
Contributor

Ajax does like to qualify things so. As opposed to "racism", now we have "psychometric racism".

I don't know if there were any mass psychological testing programs on Australians that might have qualified my claims. More just a feel from day to day life. Although, I tend to think that if such tests were carried out, the results might have been suppressed.

My opinions come from a few varied areas. Public record manifested in a Prime Minister, Sir Robert Menzies, that declared England "the mother country" in his own diary entries and would express such emotion as his plane flew into view of the English mainland during his liaison trips and how his heart swelled. Couple that with his infamous "I but did see her passing by...." speech in front of Queen Elizabeth II in 1963. Sounds like a guy not particularly interested in the forwarding of the uniquely Australian point of view.

Private record in that I was continually privy to office environments, both publicly financed (Army) and private institutions, where the level of conversation was blatant and bile inducing. If it wasn't about how problems in local parks were caused by gangs that my peers felt had to be black and causing trouble, even though they weren't and I proved it, it was about how to figure out ways not to call the Indigenous Australian Rules players Jim and Andrew Krakouer (North Melbourne Football Club) anything but the magnificent sportsmen they were.

But the biggest kick to the stomach which made me think that I have to think for myself came when I saw a news article on the award winning SBS television network in the mid 1980s that explained that, according to surveys, people born in Australia from 1900 or earlier through to the mid 1960s subscribed to a view that Australian fauna were evolutionarily retrograde and inferior even though there was no basis for any such claim. A further filtering of the statistics revealed that teachers of that era were overwhelmingly British.

The Red Kangaroo, Western Grey or the massive Eastern Grey somehow inferior? To what? The Koala is inferior to what? A fictional bear called "Teddy"? Then there is the bush-bulldozer that is the Wombat and the wonderful monotremes that are the Echidna and the Platypus. These phenomenon are not "retrograde" animals. They are wonders of evolution.

Anyway, my late father was a child of that period and I found out, much to my extreme disappointment, that he felt the same way. And I knew his teachers were largely British.

So now we have the Richard Dawkins meme effect coming into play.

So, ya see, there is a hangover effect. Although I would categorise the 20th century misinformation period as less hangover and more an entirely new binge.


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Sat 1 Sep 12 #150 
Ajax
Contributor

Not "psychometric racism". A psychometric test for racism.


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Sat 1 Sep 12 #151 
southshoregirl

jmaxg, I told you some time ago, and with due respect, that I think you need a walk about. You know, get back to your base and reconfirm your pride. Forget all this other stuff. Just ignore it. It isn't even relevant in the work in which you are living.

You know that BS about the Australian fauna is bullshit so why are you whining about it? It is just adapted to its living conditions. Honestly, sometimes you say things that are just silly.


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Sat 1 Sep 12 #152 
southshoregirl

I need a nap. I saw a great show last night.....bogus, no doubt, but fun.....which had the premise that other far-flung worlds are infecting Earth with viruses and bacteria. Interesting to think about but why do they have these things on at 2 AM????


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Sat 1 Sep 12 #153 
kevg
The Grumpinator

So the duck billed platypus is Britains fault ??
I realise now why the Aborigines never settled down on farms, the kangaroos kept jumping the fences (to get out).
The koala (or drop bear as we know them) isn't inferior to anything it's just inferior. It's not even a bear for goodness sake.
The wombat and echidna may indeed be wonderful animals but are they good to eat ?? If not what is the point of their existence.
As for chaps sitting round blaming everything on someone else (from another tribe) I think you'll find that has been going on since well before the enlightened Greeks. It's human nature, live with it.
Man has been tribal (now called racist) since time immemorial. That is how we developed. Nothing speeds technology like warfare.
Fortunately us enlightened British were dead good at war, otherwise you lot would all be talking French and surrendering to the local natives.


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Sun 2 Sep 12 #154 
southshoregirl

I don't think those animals are inferior. They have just adapted to their living conditions. I think it is very interesting.

What you you said about MAN being tribal is absolutely true. It is the nature of man to be tribal and always will be. I have to agree that technology is definitely sped up dramatically by warfare. That's my opinion, for what it's worth.


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Mon 3 Sep 12 #155 
Ajax
Contributor

I feel really young or really out of the loop. I've never heard that our animals were inferior. Who would say that? The convicts in Tassie learned to eat roo before there were sheep. Roo was even sold.

I was born in Australia and I'm not 50% British descent, so I don't know what you are banging on about. I worked most of my life in a hospital environment. The only full on racism you ever saw was from the Filipina nurses, who hated all other Asians. And not really racism, but Indian doctors refusing to talk to lower caste Indians directly. Pretty appalling.

If you don't know other languages then you will not hear the racist remarks around you from other ethnicities. The Chinese are pretty good at it, and don't expect anybody white to understand what they are saying. I love telling them that I'm not the foreign devil here, they are. Shock and awe.


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Mon 3 Sep 12 #156 
Ajax
Contributor

I forgot the laughter. There is much laughter if a white person speaks Chinese, which is turned into respect once you explain that you are part Chinese. Then it is all good.

I love the Chinese, probably above anyone else. That's racism.


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Mon 3 Sep 12 #157 
southshoregirl

No, you just love the Chinese. If you hated them it would be racist. Isn't that how it works?

I think it is great fun when people are speaking a language and have no idea that someone else knows what they are saying. It is the ultimate kick in their butts!


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Tue 4 Sep 12 #158 
Ajax
Contributor

More people don't speak English than do. English isn't even the most spoken language in the whole world.

Which makes me think of mass murder in Colorado. It's just nuts.


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Tue 4 Sep 12 #159 
jmaxg
Contributor

I saw a viral video once........the premise was reported to be a "western orphan in Chinese society". Supposedly, it was a video of an imported western child that had been adopted by a Chinese couple. But in the video, set in an Asian market, the parents were absent and the poor child was alone.

What happened to that child, whatever the circumstance, sickened me and outraged me. Adults surrounded him and they kicked, slapped and tormented him. I guessed that he was maybe 8 years old. And I watched as he devolved into a toddler state, crying and pleading, as merciless adults surrounded him and beat him viciously.

The anger that built in me could not be described.

The premise was a European orphan in Chinese society. And about that, I'd like to point out:

A. There is no proof that it was in China or even that the people I saw were Chinese.

B. The origin of the unfortunate child, even though stated to be "western", was unclear in the video.

But the fact is, it was a child. So, whatever it was I saw, it was a gut-stabbing indictment of whatever those people were.

I too have heard that racism is not just restricted to the white society. I have heard that certain world demographics are legendary in their approach at racial purity.

But after reading up on Emmett Till, or the three girls blown up in Birmingham, Alabama, and then seeing that video, I realise that the world still has a gulf of understanding to overcome.

That video was recent and that is part of the point. That was sickeningly frightening and may be indicative that diplomacy is ultimately a facade as far as some nations are concerned.

A scary and sobering thought.


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Tue 4 Sep 12 #160 
southshoregirl

We all know that racism exists. Tribes exist to this day. While we act civilized and don't have any immediate need to turn against other tribes living in proximity I would GUESS that we would turn against anyone who is not in our own tribe if we needed to do so to survive. I am saying this in a worse case scenario and throwing it out to you to think about. I am not saying it is a proven fact....it is a thought of mine.

Where did you see that "viral video", John, and if you say youtube I will say be careful about the veracity of what you saw. There is a lot of junk on there, as you well know.


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