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Mon 20 Aug 18 #1 
Ruby Franks
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Kine is not a collective term for cows, it's just an archaic plural.

To say a kine of cows is as nonsensical as saying a cattle of cows. I did double-check in a dictionary.

I'm also idly wondering why this topic is more Nature than Language?




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Wed 22 Aug 18 #2 
JMK
Editor

Although I did find reference to a kine of cows in a couple of dictionaries the general consensus in the "better"  dictionaries was that it is an archaic plural of cows and hence not really belonging here. I think there are a few others in this subject that need to be removed also, they give me the feeling that someone used it once because they thought it was funny. Ones in the subject should have been used with reasonable frequency in either literature or common usage. Something that was used once by someone and never again should not count. My thoughts any way, keen to hear other opinions.
I will remove kine however.




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Thu 23 Aug 18 #3 
Ruby Franks
Editor

Thanks JMK.

The language v science debate is purely subjective.Personally I can't imagine scientists talking about a kindle of kittens when they want to describe a group of young cats, but maybe they do it all the time. 




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Thu 23 Aug 18 #4 
JMK
Editor

:) No I can't see that either. I am compiling a list of some to remove from the subject, starting at A and working my way through.




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Thu 23 Aug 18 #5 
JMK
Editor

Some ones I am considering for deletion - speak up if you think they should be kept. I got as far as the Cs.
Ambush of tigers - unauthenticated. They are solitary animals that don't hunt or live in groups.
Ascension of larks - seems to refer to a novel of that name by Rachel Linden. I can't find examples of it otherwise.
Badling of ducks - an archaic term no longer used. Maybe we need a separate subject for archaic collective nouns. Maybe also a separate one for humourous collective nouns
Battery of barracudas - Unauthenticated
Buffoonery of Orangutans - unauthenticated and they are solitary animals.
Cackle of hyenas - a poetic term, rarely used and never by scientists
Charm of falcons - unauthenticated
Charm of magpies - unauthenticated apart from a book of that name.
Congress of baboons - unauthenticated and actively disputed by reputable sources. Troop is the correct term.
Conspiracy of ravens - obsolete term
Cowardice of curs - a cur is a descriptive term for a mongrel dog, not a type of animal
Culture of bacteria - bacteria are not animals 

 



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Thu 23 Aug 18 #6 
Ruby Franks
Editor

No objection to those.

I'm starting at the end of the alphabet so as not to clash.

Yoke of oxen - refers to when they're yoked up for ploughing, usually just two. Herd or drove are better.

Wing of plovers - stand or congregation seem to be the more usual terms.

Wedge of swans - refers to a group of swans flying. Herd, bevy and eyrar are also collectives for swans.

Wake of vultures - refers specifically to a group of feeding vultures, circling vultures are a kettle, flock seems to be the general collective.

Wake of buzzards seems to be OK as a general collective. (Confusingly it seems that in US English buzzard often refers to vultures, whereas the rest of the Anglophone world is talking about buteo buteo, which Americans call a hawk)

Turn of turtles - can't find this, it looks like a joke on 'to turn turtle'. A bale seems to be more usual.

Team of ducks - team, like skein or string refers to flying waterfowl.

OK just D - S to go.

And yes, looking at these in more detail, I may have to return to my original position. Pare down the Science and Nature group and also have  a topic under Language  with the addition of the poetic and archaic?

Kindle of kittens may be more scientific than I thought (or at least a cat breeder's term). It is the same as a litter - or could possibly be two litters from the same mother.




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Thu 23 Aug 18 #7 
chooky
Editor

I noticed a few dodgy ones too but haven't gotten around to posting about them. (This happens with my contributions too - I've got about 9 new subjects almost ready to go). Flink of cows is another not very well credential term, IMHO.
If it would help, I could go through the rest. Promise to actually stick it out to the end!




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Thu 23 Aug 18 #8 
Ruby Franks
Editor

I'm happy to look at more, but a few a day....getting too much enjoyment and diversion from looking at all the strange and wonderful sites devoted to collective nouns.




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Thu 23 Aug 18 #9 
Nemesis
Editor

An ascension of larks must come from Lark Ascending by Ralph Vaughan Williams, which is reasonably well known.  I’d vote to keep that one in.

 




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Thu 23 Aug 18 #10 
Ruby Franks
Editor

It's nice but JMKs point is that it's not a collective noun, and if it is kept in I don't think it should be in Science and Nature, but could possibly be in my proposed collective noun topic in Language.

(Trumpian harrumph  FAKE COLLECTIVE NOUNS!!!!)




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Thu 23 Aug 18 #11 
BBandicoot
Contributor

There is an obscure book titled "Ascension of Larks" also an even more obscure song with the same title. This is probably impertinent information. 

If any animal collective should be an "Ascension", it is the larks ;)




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Thu 23 Aug 18 #12 
JMK
Editor

I vote to put Ascenscion of Larks into the new Poetic and Archaic Collective Nouns topic in Language .




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Sat 25 Aug 18 #13 
Ruby Franks
Editor

OK, more queries, carrying on from the bottom:

Swarm of ants - usually for flying ants.

Stud - I think this is more the the name of a farm than the group of animals. It get's more debatable with the term stable e.g. 'She has a fine stable of horses' refers to the animals rather than buildings.

Stench of skunks - couldn't find this as a collective, it seems it's more usual to say surfeit of skunks. 

Shoal - I'm not quite sure why bass and shad have been selected as shoal can apply to fish in  general and any specific sort of fish. 

Run of poultry - more of a place to keep the poultry. Couldn't find a collective for 'poultry' although there are plenty for different kinds of poultry.         

D - P yet to do.

A plea, if this subject does go under Language as well, can it just be called Collective Nouns - Animals? I suggest that the poetic/archaic terms should have some kind of citation in the trivia notes.                                                       




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Sat 25 Aug 18 #14 
Ruby Franks
Editor

I'm going to hammer away at this until you're all sick of it - Ascension of larks, very pretty, but looking at the resume of the book I had no clue as to whether it could mean a group of larks or the larks in the act of rising.....




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Sat 25 Aug 18 #15 
BBandicoot
Contributor

The fish ones are confusing. School too can be applied generally. Have gotten those wrong before clicking the incorrect correct answer.

Run in terms of poultry is a noun, but I don't think a collective one. Chicken Run the movie probably birthed that one. 

Swarm - collective noun for flying creatures, should be swarm of flying ants.

Have actually found a couple places that list "Ascension of larks" as a collective, as well as surfeit, odor, and stench of skunks.




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Sat 25 Aug 18 #16 
BBandicoot
Contributor

But it looks like "exaltation" is the common collective for larks. With "bevy" being frequently used as well.

 




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Sat 25 Aug 18 #17 
BBandicoot
Contributor

But I will cave and admit that "Ascension" seems to be a poetic usage, while "exaltation" is clearly the scientific norm. From a selfish standpoint, that one is easy to get right; whereas choosing which shoal or school is (more?) correct can be a bit maddening.




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Tue 28 Aug 18 #18 
JMK
Editor

D & E

Deceit of Lapwings - archaic term. Flock is the common scientific term

Descent of woodpeckers - poetic termTthey are solitary or travel in pairs.
Dole  of Doves - archaic term

Down of hares - unauthenticated. Drove seems to be the scientific term
Doylt of swine - unauthenticated. 
Draught of fish - archaic biblical reference. The Old English word draught [or draft] means “something pulled or drawn”—and therefore refers to fish when they are drawn into a net.
Dray of squirrels - Dray or Drey is the name for a squirrel's nest. They are a solitary animal.
Dropping of pigeons - unauthenticated. Usual term is flock
Drove of cattle - refers to cattle, swine, sheep etc who are being moved or driven in a group
Drumming of grouse - poetic term
Dule of doves - as for dole of doves - archaic
Durante of Tucans - poetic term
Erst of bees - archaic poetic term referring to the first swarm of bees in a season
Exaltation of larks - like ascension this is a poetic term. The scientific term is flock.



 




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Tue 28 Aug 18 #19 
chooky
Editor

Flink of cows (supposedly a herd of 12) is also unauthenticated & there isn't an entry for the word 'flink' in any english dictionary I looked up.




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Thu 30 Aug 18 #20 
Ruby Franks
Editor

BB, Chicken run ... imagine  your poultry in a wire-netted area, often a long narrow extension from the small house/shed in which they spend the night, the enclosed area is where they spend the day - the run ...the film title was taken from this common (UK English) expression.




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Thu 30 Aug 18 #21 
Ruby Franks
Editor

JMK, I can go either way on a lot of these expressions - exaltation of larks, charm of goldfinches, murmuration of starlings are all terms that are familiar to me, and that I might argue that ornithologists (scientists?) would use.




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Thu 30 Aug 18 #22 
JMK
Editor

If these were just being deleted I would go with keeping them in as you are right about common usage, but as we are moving them to another subject I think they can go. I checked on scientific sites and none of them use those terms.




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Thu 30 Aug 18 #23 
Ruby Franks
Editor

Pod of boars - I'm not sure - can't find this, and does it mean wild boar (male and female) or a group of male pigs (boars)?

Plump of waterfowl - seems OK, it is a generic word like flock so plump of duck, plump of geese etc as well

Pladge of wasps - can't find this....someone misspelling plague of wasps??? 

Piddle of puppies - although there are references, I think litter is the scientific term.

Peep of chicks - more likely to be clutch or brood.

Passel and parcel of hogs - a real language question, both US English terms, and not scientific

Parade of penguins  - rookery or colony more usual. 

Parade of elephants - herd more usual. It looks as if parade used as a collective refers to animals in captivity or as predictable displays in animal reserves.

Not finished looking at P but have to go at the mo.




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