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Thu 25 Jan #1 
Ruby Franks
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Charles Manson -- Murderer -- d.2017

Kate Millett -- Author -- d.2017 -- Feminist and activist, known for the book 'Sexual Politics', but also wrote and campaigned on torture  mental health issues.

Harry Dean Stanton -- Actor -- d.2017 aged 91. American character  actor who was working up to a short while before his death, Best known for his lead role in 'Paris, Texas'.

Sue Grafton -- Author -- d.2017. Alphabet series, 'A is For Alibi' etc.

Hugh Masakela -- Musician -- d. 2018 aged 78. South African jazz musician and composer and anti-apartheid activist.

Jimmy Armfield -- Footballer -- d.2018. Played for Blackpool and England and managed Leeds United.

Ursula K. Le Guin -- Author -- d. 2018. Science fiction, fantasy and children's author. Earthsea, The Dispossessed, The Left Hand of Darkness.

Dolores O'Riordan -- Musician -- d.2018 aged 46. Lead singer of The Cranberries.

Cyrille Regis -- Footballer -- d.2018 aged 59. Capped for England five times, he played top-flight football in the late 1970s and 19080s for WBA and Coventry, at a time when racism was rife in English football, he endured taunts and insults from home and away fans alike. Now seen not only as sports role-model but as an example in the fight against racism. A campaigner for Water Aid in Africa.

Jenny Joseph -- Poet -- d. 2018 -- 'Warning' 1961:  "When I am an old woman I shall wear purple,/With a red hat which doesn't go, and doesn't suit me./And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves ..." 

Peter Wyngarde -- Actor -- d. 2018 possibly aged 90. He is remembered most for the part of Jason King on British television. Mike Myers based the style of Austin Powers on Jason King. Wyngarde's accounts of his early life are vague and contradictory, possibly to hide a mixed race background and to appear younger in his profession.

Johnny Hallyday -- Musician -- d.2017. France's best known rock and roll singer.

Azzedine Alaia -- Fashion Designer -- d.2017.




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Thu 25 Jan #2 
Ruby Franks
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Whoops. Also:

Mark E. Smith -- Musician -- died 2018 aged 60. Lead singer of the Fall.

 




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Thu 25 Jan #3 
chooky
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Sorry to stick my oar in on this, and it's just my personal opinion, buuuut :
In November when I did some additions to this subject and - "I purposely left Charles Manson off the list because I personally don't think he rates a mention - for obvious reasons."
Because he wasn't a charismatic cult leader at all - just a crafty little weasel whose innate glibness helped him inveigle his way into the affections of a bunch of naive, disaffected, suggestable young people with abominable results.
Now he's dead, his name should dissappear from history




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Thu 25 Jan #4 
Ruby Franks
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That's why I didn't add any notes on Manson. I think that however much we despise some people, their existence and actions are still fact. I'm not sure anything should disappear from history, but let's hope that some interpretations of history do disappear e.g. 'charismatic cult leader'  - as you have already said.

I added another terrible criminal to this subject, Ian Brady, despicable as these people were, their crimes had enormous impact in their respective countries in all sorts of areas, policing and detection, news reporting, the penal system, and unfortunately in popular culture.

There are facts in Factacular about Hitler and Stalin, and a section on criminals' nicknames, some of whom were mass murderers. 

Sorry I hadn't noted your previous comment about Manson, very happy to have him taken out, I could edit him out now, but thought it worth some discussion - more about the general principle than any one individual.




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Fri 26 Jan #5 
JMK
Editor

I'm in two minds about this, I certainly don't want to glorify him but also don't want to re-write history. Other comments are welcomed.

In the meantime I will put the others in.




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Fri 26 Jan #6 
Ruby Franks
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Thanks JMK. chooky certainly raised some doubts in my mind, but in the end, I think it's less about the fact itself, than about what opinions are written in the trivia afterward, and those are debateable, deleteable and fluid.




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Fri 26 Jan #7 
chooky
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Just one more point then I'll shut up.
I would certainly never advocate rewriting history. We should never shy away from making a thorough analysis of tragic events or polarizing historical figures - how else will we learn and progress?
Ruby, you mentioned "however much we despise people their exsistence and actions are still fact. I'm not sure anything should disappear from history...."
But countless people and events disappear from history all the time - because they are not worthy of recall. Manson, in my view, falls into this category. People like Hitler & others you mentioned went to great lengths to pereptuate their wickedness and Ian Brady is a very valuable object lesson in what can go wrong with the human psyche. Manson was a shiftless, lazy, sneaky, coward who constantly complained about the terrible hand he had been dealt with in life. And, worst of all, he absolutely revelled in his infamy. Most of his "Family" (by the way - I searched on Facta for Susan Atkins, one of the perpetrators of the Tate - La Bianca murders and who died in 2009. She doesn't appear.) were pretty much on a path to a life of delinquency - and worse - with or without him.
All these people are to be despised but not all should remain in our social consciousness.

Sorry to keep banging on about it but I really think it's worth putting out there.
Shutting up now.




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Fri 26 Jan #8 
Ruby Franks
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You're right, but it's something that happened, and for those of us who are older it's a fact we'll remember.

There are Victorian murderers who may no longer be in the popular imagination or memory, but who had major impact at the time, and for those who study that part history are still known. Manson won't disappear from history, but its hoped that he will leave the popular imagination; which that undetected Victorian muderer of women, Jack the Ripper hasn't.

There are reasons why events surrounding Manson may be worthy of recall; some people of some cultural note were conned by him; along with other events,it was end of the view that 'hippy' culture was all sweetness and light, and because the Tate/LaBianca murders were world-wide news.

I think we're doing exactly what we don't want, which is to give Manson more exposure. Without wanting to either aggrandise or belittle his life and actions, it's just a fact that he existed.

Disappearing from history is another discussion, a lot of people aren't there, or on the margins, even though they are worthy of discussion. I was surprised recently to discover that 1 million soldiers from India serving in WW1.

I think I'm wanting to say, that this is a fact quiz site, I'd hate it if somebody came along and wanted to delete all atheist authors, or all slave-owning US presidents (I realise that these are not good analogies)

Personally, I'm happy to leave Manson out, (this is not a site that claims to have all facts on any given subject) but I'm not sure that I would object or would want to see the same objections, if in the future somebody else decided that it was a fact that needed adding.

chooky, never shut up. :)




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Fri 26 Jan #9 
JMK
Editor

I think I will add him, with no extra information. Just the plain facts that he existed, was a murderer and died. 

Thanks Chooky and Ruby for the input. Debate is good.




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