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Sun 11 Dec 16 #1 
kevg
The Grumpinator


Australia

Before we got there it was first inhabited by Aborigines, 40-50,000 years ago.
Then the Dutch found it, mind you they didn't like it so never tried to settle there.
British will take anything so moved in. After Dampier visited in 1690 (approx) Cook claimed the island
in 1770. Convicts first started arriving in 1788. They were responsible for British influence, but of course
there were guards who married female convicts as well. By no means the biggest influence.
Vicoria and Western Australia were founded as convict free states but accepted them later.
South Australia was convict free.
Not much happened for a few years then some fool discovered gold !
This was biggest influence, population tripled in 20 years. So most Aussies are descended from 
gold hunters not convicts, oops.

More tomorrow




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Sun 11 Dec 16 #2 
sally906 (online)
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My hubby is descended from not one, and not two, but THREE convicts!  Two of whom were married to each other and their daughter married the son of another convict.

No gold hunters for us - mostly coal miners.

 




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Mon 12 Dec 16 #3 
mapmaker
Contributor

Excellent opening gambit Kev, bless you and all who sail in her!!

 




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Mon 12 Dec 16 #4 
kevg
The Grumpinator

Which led to the Eureka Stockade rebellion, where the rebels held out for 30 minutes.
However this did lead to changes in the structure of the Government, so it did work.
Australia bimbled along until the whole Gallipoli campaign, where despite not being the lead nation
they came of age. A good time was had by all !!
(Gallipoli is covered  elsewhere, look back in General Discussion.)
(Kokada Track was Second World War equivalent, also look back)
After El Alemein in WW2 Australia took it's troops home to defend the home island.
Their partner was now USA not the UK, which was the reason they became involved in Vietnam.
Defeating the enemy and pacifying the area they were allotted until sent home in triumph.

Nothing has happened since.

Incidentally the famous tune about Gallipoli, "And the band played Waltzing Matilda" is full of inaccuracies
which is perhaps why the anti-war message has been forgotten.




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Tue 13 Dec 16 #5 
jmaxg
Contributor

Well yes, but can we also state here that during WWII, Winston Churchill turned back a ship meant to reinforce the Singapore campaign and was the most obvious reason why the Singapore Capitulation and Burma Railway happened.

Interpreting and re-interpreting history is never easy. Well, obviously easier for some.

But the fact is to a great many nations, Winston Churchill is no great friend.

From Gallipoli to Tobruk and Singapore, a great many nations have no love for Winston Churchill.




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Tue 13 Dec 16 #6 
jmaxg
Contributor

Having said that, the man had ENORMOUS signifigance relative to world history and that cannot be denied.

Even if it was the massive cannon fodder diversion of World War One and deliberate sacrifice of World War Two.

In actuality, Winston Churchill should be considered a monster.

But the world is a far more complicated place it seems.




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Tue 13 Dec 16 #7 
jmaxg
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But "Australia" specifically? Please! Give us your unbridled English wisdom.

If I said, at this point, that 2 million aborigines were reduced to 250,000, and that nobody literally gives a shit?

Welcome to British styled sociology!

Is it possible that millions and their lives, families and social structures have been completely wiped out?

Yes.

It makes me angrier just thinking about it.




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Tue 13 Dec 16 #8 
jmaxg
Contributor

But no, please, go ahead kevg.

Tell me what YOU think.




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Tue 13 Dec 16 #9 
Ruby Franks
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I'm not sure from whom most Australians are descended, but I thought a lot were descended from Greeks, Vietnamese, British £10 immigrants and many others.

Once a gold-mining settlement was established, store-keepers, farmers, law-enforcers, teachers and all the other support services were needed. All nations have a rich and varied social history, and it may look great and dramatic, but narrow generalisations aren't particularly accurate.




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Tue 13 Dec 16 #10 
kevg
The Grumpinator

Told you before, lots of guys thankful that ship turned around, they would have surrendered anyway. Nowt to do with numbers,  water supply got busted.




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Tue 13 Dec 16 #11 
jmaxg
Contributor

The fact is, lots of people were delivered into a hell which eventually became the Burma Railway in WW2 as a direct result of the surrender of Singapore. And all because somebody ordered that troop ships turn about.

With WWOne, the overseer of Gallipoli (guess who) actually caused more English death and casualty than Australia and New Zealand combined. BUT, the percentage of death and casualty relative to Australia and New Zealand was FAR and ABOVE that of England by a factor of ten.

We were just little countries, starting out in life. Churchill's Gallipoli orders decimated us and it took many, many years to recover.

The argument that Oz and NZ suffered impairment during further development because of Gallipoli is a valid one.

 




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Tue 13 Dec 16 #12 
jmaxg
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But I, alongside others, cannot find it within ourselves to stomp on Churchill.

His amazing iron will and resolve saved England relative to WW2. That's important. That contributed majorly to saving the world from NAZI domination.

Java and myself now temper that with what we believe was a sneaky, yet heroic act by the previous PM, Neville Chamberlain, stalling outright war and giving notice to English and foreign industries notice and time to ramp up possible war tool production. The fact that Neville Chamberlain is so badly treated by history is simply not fair.

But Winston is a dual consideration........admiration for his iron resolve, but hatred for some of his decisions.




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Tue 13 Dec 16 #13 
chooky
Contributor

Kevg, I'm sure your summary of Australian history was meant as a dig at jmaxg rather than for educational purposes otherwise you would have included more information than could be gleaned from skimming the overview on wikipedia's "Australia" page.  But -  'So most Aussies are decended from gold hunters not convicts, oops.'   Oops???
We are not all sitting around telling everyone we're related to Captain Starlight or the Wild Colonial Boy or Ned Kelly or the Jolly Swagman any more than we get from point A to point B by catching a passing emu.

It's Kokoda, by the way.
 




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Tue 13 Dec 16 #14 
kevg
The Grumpinator

Sally is a nutcase !!

Don't care about Kokada or Kokoda, a slip of the fingers is allowed. You want a row about it ??

hehehehehe




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Tue 13 Dec 16 #15 
kevg
The Grumpinator

http://www.factacular.com/topic.php?topicid=121249#new

Kokoda Track

http://www.factacular.com/topic.php?topicid=62882#new

Gallipoli




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Wed 14 Dec 16 #16 
chooky
Contributor

"Sally is a nutcase!!" ?  WTF??  I nearly fell off my Emu! You are not a nutcase Sally!

I don't care that much about a slip of the fingers either. But I'm ready to go again about artificial hair any time you like.  Or if you prefer, how about the tried & true U.S election, refered to in some circles as "I Can't Believe That Just Happened 2016"  or in our house "Trump Won't Make America Great Again"

Your turn.




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Wed 14 Dec 16 #17 
chooky
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One more thing.
There wont be a wall unless it's in the north to keep people in.

hehehehehe




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Wed 14 Dec 16 #18 
kevg
The Grumpinator

Unfortunately I care even less about US than I do about Australia.

Although I could be heading there shortly. 

Look out USA !!!




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Wed 14 Dec 16 #19 
kevg
The Grumpinator

Don't bame Churchill for Singapore, blame Percival. Inept leadership  coupled with racism, no wonder he never got another job.




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Thu 15 Dec 16 #20 
sally906 (online)
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You know Chooky, you're right, I'm NOT a nutcase - and even if I was, I have no idea how my mental state would have anything to do with Australian history.




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Thu 15 Dec 16 #21 
jmaxg
Contributor

He did it again.....Yes, blame Churchill!

There is actually not a time when you cannot blame Churchill. WW1, WW2, certain intelligence losses? Even Kim Philby revolved about Winston Churchill.

As I said in my previous post, there is much to admire. But there is also much to despair of.




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Thu 15 Dec 16 #22 
jmaxg
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Reference post#4 above.

Australia came of age, like New Zealand did, when we realised that England regarded us as cannon fodder.

The whole point of Gallipoli, and why we mark it, is this:

To be subservient to England is one thing. To be led to the slaughter is something entirely different.

At that point, two nations, at the same time, decided that our future was better left to ourselves.

New Zealand did it one way and Australia did it another BUT both of our histories were joined with effect April 25th, 1915.

We didn't ask for it. But nevertheless, we copped it.




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Thu 15 Dec 16 #23 
jmaxg
Contributor

I am sure a lot of English look upon April 25th and are all like "Huh? What?".

They are entitled as the number of British lost during Gallipoli FAR outweighed the Australian and New Zealand losses.

But to "miss the point" is an understatement in this case.

Two nations at the beginning of their life......and a quarter of their respective man power was suddenly removed in both cases.

No problem.....we regenerated. But we also learned.




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Thu 15 Dec 16 #24 
jmaxg
Contributor

In Vietnam and the Battle of Long Tan, one person stood out.

Whilst Delta Company, 5 RAR and 6 RAR complimented by the 1st APC Squadron Mechanized soldiers were the participants, it was the head of a New Zealand observer and artillery placer unit that saved Australian troops.

Captain Maurice Stanley and his three-man team (New Zealand) effectively called in American artillery and decimated the opposition within inches of Australian soldiers. One of the best called and delivered artillery barrages in the history of military conduct. To do so meant they must have been up close and personal themselves. And saved many Australian lives.

Along with 5 RAR and 6 RAR, Captain Stanley and his people are foverever the ones that belong to April 25th and ANZAC Day.

They are the reasons both countries hold that day so dear.




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Thu 22 Dec 16 #25 
jmaxg
Contributor

Captain Stanley (NZ Forces) is the "BOSS" in my small opinion.

He literally changed the game at Long Tan and is the hero of Long Tan.

It's one thing to bring artillery close in and upon you. It's another thing do render them in inch by inch.

That's what Captain Maurice Stanley did in support of the Australian 5/7 Regiment.

The result was the decimation of incoming divisions of Vietnam forces.

In my opinion, one of the greatest moves by a soldier in the history of warfare. The result of which was the virtual saving of Australia's 5/7 regiment.

Captain Stanley is a GOD! No doubt about it.




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